A little quiz

I know of this theory, Elle. I'll read Delmar's new thread on it and perhaps I'll see how it works.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

The thing is, as you know, the petechial hemorrhages found around the body, including on the neck, eyes, back, I believe, and even internally, prove she was strangled to death and died of strangulation. If your theory is a scarf strangulation came first, I've heard that debated before. Some of us were surprised to see a second, fainter line of bruising from strangulation lower on the neck when Smit shared his PowerPoint pics with us. But it is possible that happened when the cord was first pulled and tightened, then rolled up as more pressure was applied. Remember that JB's necklace was rolled up in the garrote as it rode up her neck, if memory serves, still twisted around the cord when it was cut at autopsy.

Also, someone could have held JonBenet's body down from behind and above her if she was on the floor, perhaps straddling it, or with help, while pulling the handle/cord, which I've theorized before. That might explain the facial bruises on the right side of the face, if something was under it on the floor while it was pressed hard into it. Or perhaps a large ring was pressing into it, either placed between it and the floor or if the face was turned right side up and the hand wearing the ring pressed down upon it during the strangulation. Or other ways. But you know, I've never strangled anyone nor seen lots of strangled bodies, as a medical examiner has, so I'm just guessing and that's a fact.

I guess for me it would come down to having a medical examiner determine if the bruising under the garrote/cord was pre-or post mortem. That can be determined, but I've never seen a conclusion on this stated, if reached by the medical examiner, that was made public, unless I missed it in the released autopsy. It's been a long time, and I'm not that good with technical autopsy information. Did Wecht address this in his book? Can't remember, it was all so new to me then.

But post mortem bruising is distinctly different, so that would be the best way to settle this question, it seems. I have always assumed LE had decided from the autopsy and Meyer's report that the garrote was in fact the murder weapon. Surely the FBI would have told them that in their consultations, if neither the CBI nor coroner did.

But maybe you're saying they didn't tell the public? Hm. I don't remember Thomas being ambiguous about it, but again, it's been so long....

I'll read Delmar's thread to get the answers so you don't have to write it all out again.

 

You know, it's interesting that you brought this up, as this is so clearly indicated in the Rams LKL interview I put the links up for.

John and Patsy state that the Whites were LIED TO by LE about the Ramseys fingering them. John says they are "still" friends with the Whites, in March of 2000, when the interview was taped. Reading the '98 interviews with the DA's detectives you bring up, it doesn't look like LE is lying to the Whites at all. John practically tells the detective he'll lie about seeing the black duct tape with White to implicate White.

Another interesting thing: Patsy plainly states she wants the '98 interviews RELEASED IN TOTAL so everyone can see "the truth."

Now...when did jams get a copy of those tapes from anonymous? How prescient of Patsy!

 

This is from the March 27, 2000 show-

J. RAMSEY: Larry, inside I was berserk. I was crushed. I didn't want to live. I couldn't breathe. I was -- I couldn't think. It's the most horrible feeling.
Larry, inside I was beserk. - Someone went beserk that night.
I was crushed. - The blow to the head
I didn't want to live. - JonBenet is beyond help.
I couldn't breathe. - The cord is tied around her neck.

I have lost two daughters. And for people to tell me he didn't act right I take great offense to. I think I could write the book on how you should act.
And the Oscar goes to.....John Ramsey!

-Tea

 

According to the autopsy:

According to this report, the cause of death is strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma. Not just strangulation alone, KK. Going by Delmar's analysis, the loop around her neck could not be tightened by pulling that handle, because the cord will not slip through that tight closed knot. Impossible!.

Haven't you ever made a simple slip knot when tying a parcel? The string tightens around the box when you pull it, and this is because of the slip knot, not a closed tight knot, which was used in the JonBenét garrote. The only way to have tightened that loop would have been to slip a pen through the noose and twist it, but I'm sure, there would have been signs of this procedure on her neck. Horrible subject this KK, isn't it? So, I think she was manually strangled before the fake garrote was tied around her neck, to give the impression a pedophile had used it for sexual gratification.

Sorry I had to repeat it again. I couldn't say what I wanted to say without going throught that part again.

 

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Elle_1
From the NE Police files. Can post the page later.

I still can't get over the audacity of Patsy Ramsey, constantly trying to throw the detectives off the scent, when it came to the red and black plaid jacket Patsy wore over her red sweater to the White's party on the 26 December, 1996. When they asked Patsy about her red and black jacket, she replied, that Priscilla White had a jacket exactly the same as hers, and she may have picked up Priscilla's jacket that night. H-e-l-l-o! Talk about throwing one of your best friends under the bus!!
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Police Files Page 248 - 249

Patsy was shown a photo of her taken at the Whites' Christmas Day dinner party in the same clothes she was wearing when police arrived the next day
- black velvet pants, red sweater, and a red' and black checkered jacket. Incredibly, police waited a year before they asked for the clothing the Ramseys wore to the Whites' party. Forensic tests showed similarities between fibers from Patsy's jacket and sweater and fibers found on the duct tape that covered JonBtmet's mouth. Asked about the clothing, Patsy gave answers that totally confused the issue.
PR ... Priscilla had a jacket like this. I mean, until I saw this picture, I had thought that I had worn my Christmas sweater to their house . . . and then I saw this picture and I said, "Oh, I must have worn THAT sweater to their house. "But then I thought, well, maybe I had her jacket. I mean, you know, I don't know.
TD: . . . That you were wearing yours on Christmas and not hers? .



PR: Well, I mean, I could have been in her house in the living room, you know, what I mean, and been cold and she said, "Here put this on." I just can't remember. My point is that we both had jackets similar to that.

TD: Okay.

PR: So I don't know.

TD: And did you buy them at the same time and place?

PR: No, I mean, I don't know, I don't know. . . I really don't remember. FYI, I mean.

TD: So can you tell if that's your jacket you're wearing or

PR: This one, you mean?

TD: Were they the exact same?

PR: They were pretty close, but I can't, I can't really remember.

TD: Uh huh.

PR: Why I would have hers on. All I'm saying is . . . first time somebody asked

me what I had on that day, I think I might have said I had my Christmas sweater on which is . . . little beaded one. And then when I saw this. picture, somebody showed me this picture
TD: Uh huh.
PR: because they wanted the clothing,.I said, "Oh,I must have worn THAT one, so I got that one instead."
I think I sent both of them, actually.
TD: You sent both of them?
PR: The. . . beaded one or whatever. . .

 

Elle1

Elle1, thanks for that Patsy quote. Nothing I have read to date, illustrates more strongly, the blatant and crude nature of Patsy’s desire to cast blame upon
others.
Her guilt is at its obvious best here, and her guilt is casting the die forever upon her earthly behavior. It’s ironic that she, being the drama queen, ever seeking her moments of fame, is going down in the annals of shame in the criminal division of historical cases.

Elle 1, you seem to be on the top of all this, and I do appreciate your informative, intelligent posts. I never miss reading every word.

GL
:leaf:

 

From The Bonita papers.......

"At 8:30 a.m. on the morning of December 26, unaware of the tragedy in Boulder, Melinda, John Andrew and Stewart Long had taken a private jet from Atlanta to Minneapolis in anticipation of meeting the rest of the Ramsey family to continue on to Charlevoix for the family holiday. Once in Minneapolis, they were contacted and told of the apparent kidnapping. Arrangements were made to fly them immediately to Denver. They took a cab
from the Denver airport to the Ramsey residence in Boulder and arrived shortly after 2:00 P.M. When the cab pulled up in front of the house, Patsy was standing in the street crying. The family and friends were shuffled into the Whites' and Fernies' vehicles that were parked in front of the house. John, Stewart and John Andrew got in the van driven by Fernie, and Patsy, Melinda, Barbara and Priscilla got in Fleet’s Suburban. As Fleet drove the women to his house, there was no conversation among the passengers – only Patsy’s incessant chanting of “dear God Jesus, dear God Jesus.†After getting in Fernie's van, John Andrew immediately asked his father what had happened, and John simply stated, “She's with Beth now"
As the vehicles proceeded on the drive to the Fernie residence, John related the morning’s events to his son, and stated that he had found JonBenet’s body around 11:00 a.m. that day."

 

I believe there has been some misconception about certain areas
of my posts. I will try to clarify a bit.

Elleâ€
“When you understand the noose around JonBenét's neck could not
be tightened by the pulling of the handle, it had to be the
swelling of the body after death which cut into the cord, not the
opposite way around, the cord into the neck, because there was no
slip knot present to tighten the cord around her neck.â€


There was a slip knot. It didn't belong. it defeated the purpose. In the proper construction of a lasso or noose, at one end of the rope, a
fixed\non slip small loop is constructed. The other end of the
rope is then put though this small loop to create the noose or
lasso. The fixed small loop does not allow the small loop to
close and compress upon the part of rope that needs to move
freely to reduce the diameter of the noose or lasso.

There was no small fixed loop in the “garrote scene.†After the
cord was brought around the neck, it was brought around itself to
create a small loop around the remaining long section of the cord
going to the handle. However, it was then wrapped about itself
again creating a knot that slips. When the two ends (short and
long) were pulled, the knot slipped down to and compressed the
main cord precluding any further movement to reduce the size of
the loop to create circumferential strangulation.

The lock situation was compounded by the type of cord itself. It
was not the usual round cord. Even if round cord, the small
diameter clamped upon itself will not move. The “semi-round†cord
was worse. When this cord was wrapped around itself and pulled
tightly it created flanges on both sides of the point of contact
doubly insuring no slip.

wombat:
“Are we sure that JonBenet's neck swelled post mortum?â€

Without doubt. If memory serves, I think it was about 30 hours
after estimated time of death that Dr. Meyer performed the
autopsy.

“EasyWriter states that this is what happened, and when I look at
the autopsy photo the cord is deeply embedded into her poor
little neck. I always thought that the cord was pulled tight and
caused damage to her trachea, etc., and choked her, although of
course she was mortally wounded by the crack in her head.†(Ibid)

The embedding is relatively even all around the neck. Any
possible embedding by pulling the handle would result in
embedding 180 degree from the pulling position with the angle of
pulling position not touching the neck at all. The handle was
never pulled. This was not the intent of the creator. It was
simply a decoration that in the mind of this confused individual
belonged with a “garrote.†Tie around; end tie and release;
string pressure equalizes around the neck; non slip knot = no
slip during post mortem swelling, hence, embedding.

“There are also bruises about her neck that do not appear to me
to be made by the cord becoming embedded as she died and
swelled.†(Ibid)

I do not know what made certain abrasions. I can speculate a pre-
death physical confrontation, but don’t know for sure. For sure,
it is staged crime scene.

Koldcase:
“The thing is, as you know, the petechial hemorrhages found
around the body, including on the neck, eyes, back, I believe,
and even internally, prove she was strangled to death and died of
strangulation.â€

“prove she was strangled to death and died of strangulation.â€
This is a fairly common belief, but not necessarily true. Death
by strangulation did not fit the other evidence and did not fit
the time frame of events the way I had envisioned it. This led me
to wonder is the petechial hemorrhages could have come about by
something other than death by strangulation. I did some research
and found:

“Asphyxia can literally be translated from the Greek as meaning
'absence of pulse', but is usually the term given to deaths due
to 'anoxia' or 'hypoxia'.

The term 'asphyxia' is thought by some forensic pathologists to
be a vague and confusing term. In its broadest sense it refers to
a state in which the body becomes deprived of oxygen while in
excess of carbon dioxide (ie. hypoxia and hypercapnoea). This
results in a loss of consciousness and/or death. However, prior
to any death the body usually reaches a low oxygen-high carbon
dioxide state, and so an 'asphyxial' death is therefore one in
which the oxygen deprived state has been achieved unnaturally.

Categorising asphyxial deaths
Neck Compression
Chest Compression
Postural/ Positional Asphyxia
Airway Obstruction
Exhaustion or Displacement of Environmental Oxygenâ€

“Petechial Haemorrhages

Unfortunately the presence of petechial haemorrhages does not
automatically point to asphyxia as a cause of death. They are
fairly non-specific in that they can be produced whenever there
is a marked or sudden increase in vascular congestion of the head
that causes rupture of capillaries.†(These are the words of Dr.
Jones, not mine.)

There is more to the article. Can’t say about now, but it was
located at Richard Jones forensicmed.co.uk

I hope this has helped clear up things a bit. If there are more
questions, fire away. If you think I am in error, by all means
say so and we will take a look. I am never afraid of finding out
I am mistaken, but am forever terrified of being mistaken and not
finding out.

 

Thank you GL for your nice comments. By the same token I enjoy your posts too. I do like to post the source when I can, for easy reference for others.

Patsy keeps trying to remove herself from this crime, doesn't she?

 

I'm going to have to agree with Tricia and also...

(even tho "Screwed By The Timeline" doesn't match the initals...) :cheerful:

AND...

I never get that either! Even when the headlines in the Natl Enq. say "brutally" - WRONG term!!
I agree with you, Cherokee!

(are you CherokeeKid on WS?? Just curious!) :cheerful:

 

totally agree - it was an accident!

 

Sorry about that. EW I almost e-mailed you to double check. Thank you for clarifying the knots. I'm so pleased you are posting the correct information to KK. She was going to read your analysis over again anyway, so I knew she would read every word you had written.

 

Niner

Thanks, dear Niner, for pointing out my error. Of course, SBTC cannot stand for "Screwed By The Timeline.: It should have read:

SBTC: "Screwed By Tinker'sdamn Clock." Is that better? LOL.

GL
:leaf:

 

No wonder Patsy was able to contort herself to step over the ransom note on the circular stairway. She'd been SBTC.

 

Hi Niner! No, I'm not "CherokeeKid" on WS. Thanks for asking though because I wouldn't want to be confused with another poster.

Years ago when I started posting on the forums, I originally posted at WS as "Cherokee." I would come over here to read, but I never posted. Eventually, I moved all my posting over here to FFJ, and quit posting at WS. Right now, I just don't have enough time to read AND post at two forums.

I noticed when I went over to WS to read something a few months ago there was a "CherokeeKid" posting on some of the threads. I wondered then if there might be some confusion with my hat and if WS posters might think it was me.

I didn't choose my hat lightly. It is part of my heritage and my name. I try not to post anything that will dishonor the nation of people it represents.

 

I didn't think CherokeeKid was you for one minute, Cherokee, because you had told me before about your heritage. It is a beautiful name. I love it! I don't like CherokeeKid. There is a brand of clothing here in Canada called "Cherokee" and I think of you every time I pass it.

 

Thanks, Elle. That's sweet. :hug:

 

On the face there is a 3/8 x 1/4 inch rust colored abrasion on her right mandible just below the ear and on the right side of the chin is a 3/16 x 1/8 inch abrasion. Have you ever seen a mother grab her child by the face when she is scolding him or her? Maybe this is how those injuries got there with Patsy's left index fingernail making the abrasion below the ear and her left thumbnail causing the one on the chin. Just a thought.

-Tea

 

No, Tea, I haven't seen a mother grab her child by the face, and if I did, I would probably end up in a cell myself. I can't stand seeing any child being bullied, and I'm afraid I've even told a few mothers I would report them to the cops in the supermarket, for the way they were dealing with their children. Honest! I've reported one or two to the manager, and they've seen me do it.

 

Oh, Elle, you've got more courage than I. Bless you. I've seen kids mistreated in stores and had to stop and hold my head down and cry. I honestly didn't know what to do. One was so loud and abusive I figured she'd deck me if I said a word. It broke my heart. I guess I figured there was no help for that child one way or the other, as this woman was too stupid to get a clue. The state has nowhere to put these children anyway. It's a hard world. I should have said something....

Tammy Faye would have known what to do!