Autopsy questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, heymom. I have been watching various reports on Natasha Richardson's head injury and death, so I, too, believe JonBenet would have dropped out of consciousness immediately and never regained it.

    Oh, it still makes me shiver to thing about it.
     
  2. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    That is my belief and one that I feel pretty sure about. The head blow is where I go back and forth between a slamming or a staging though.

    KK - since for whatever reason that it had to be to kill this little girl, my wish is that JonBenet was unaware of the other various violations imposed upon her......the paint brush, the ropes, the wipe down of her body, stuffed away in the dark, etc........
     
  3. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    The poor baby. Yes, I also hope (and believe) that she was not aware of what was done to her after she was hit on the head. We know she was unconscious for the garrote, because there was little movement of the cord around her neck- no sign of struggle, no evidence of her tongue struggling against her teeth or mouth, no evidence of struggling against the duct tape. The much-mistaken marks on her neck were petechiae, not scratch marks, which is often mistakenly thought by some. Of course, JR has always maintained her wrists were bound, so of course, how could she have scratched her neck anyway? And if she was bound later, well, no need to bind the hands of a dead child unless you are staging a crime. Moot point- we know from the autopsy her hands were not tightly bound.
    As horrifying as it is to us to imagine her tiny dead body lying in that pitch-dark, moldy basement room- by that time she was surrounded by loving angels' wings...in Paradise. No wonder her parents wrapped her lovingly in her own blanket. They couldn't bear it either but they did what they had to do, didn't they?
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, sb, this could be exactly what you're saying it is here, a thumbprint on her neck. So glad your son wasn't injured more with this accidental happening. These freak accidents can cause serious damage sometimes.
     
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    It was obvious the Ramseys did take some personal care with JonBenét after she died. No intruder needed to give a damn about her. All an intruder would have been concerned with was getting the hell out of the there as fast they could, and yet the Ramseys blew it by giving JonBenét too much personal attention. The amazing thing is the Ramseys getting away with it.

    How I would love to be sitting in a university criminal classroom hearing the students analyzing the JonBenét Ramsey case. It has to be a classic. Better still, how I would love to be in Boulder while they are going over this case again.
     
  6. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Answers from an M. D.

    Here is an excerpt from an e mail exchange I've had with an emergency room M.D. whom several might know here from the poster name (Elvislives/Elvis) she used on some forums.
    I had asked her some medical questions related to the JBR case, which she had the kindness to answer. Her answers are in bold type.
    (Posted with permission from the M. D.):

    Let me try to explain my answers, then please let me know if you need clarification:
    # 1 - In the autopsy report, it says:

    "A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule." (end quote)

    Q: Does "semifluid" indicate the blood did not yet fully coagalate?

    Q: How long does it take for blood to coagulate?

    #1. Blood will begin to coagulate immediately at a microscopic level (as soon as the collagen-which is present within the vessel walls and is exposed when the vessel is injured-comes into contact with blood factors, the hemo cascade starts), but the coag process won't be discernable to the naked eye for several minutes in minor injuries (such as the one in JB's vagina). Here is a website that might help:

    http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/blood-coagulation.html#activation

    The reason the blood in the vaginal vestibule was described as "semifluid" is because it was not exposed to air and therefore had not dried. (blood separated from the site of injury will not coagulate in the normal biochemical sense, but will congeal and "dry up")


    # 2 - Also from the autopsy report:

    "A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault." (end quote)

    Q: Is this "semiliquid thin watery fluid fluid" blood too?

    This implies that "water" (perhaps from a clean up) mixed with blood, leaving a "semiliquid thin watery fluid


    # 3 - As one can see in the autopsy pictures, the furrow on JonBenet's neck was reddish-brown.

    Q: Suppose the cord had been placed on an already deceased victim, would the neck furrow have shown the same color? If not, what color would it have been?

    It would depend on how long after death the cord was applied. Lay persons generally think of death as an instantaneous immediate event. It is not. It is a PROCESS that can take some time, depending on circumstances. If for example, a cord had been applied to a body that had been dead for 2 hrs, the furrow would be white. After rigor had set in, the cord would make a white mark but there would be no furrow. But if the cord was applied during or shortly after death, it may still have some color (way too many variables to give absolutes). In JBs case the cord was clearly applied while she was still living and asphixia by the ligature was indeed the cause of death.

    # 4 - Natasha Richardson's death from a head inury has triggered some discussion as to whether JonBenet too could have been alive and conscious after the head blow.

    A poster wrote: "What I am saying is that just because it is a large injury, assumptions are being made that it was immediately incapacitating. I don't know that it was." (end quote)

    I had replied:

    "As for "immediately incapacitating", one has to look at the totality of the autopsy findings. With her skull split in two halves (see the X-Ray picture or the picture of her skull - this was no "fine line" skull fracture - the gap between the two skull halves was big!), with a piece of bone dislodged, with extensive brain contusions measuring over eight inches (!) in length, and up to 1.75 inches in width, with extensive scalp hemorrhage, subdural hemorrhage and extensive subarachnoid hemorrhage [it extended over the entire right cerebral hemisphere] - can there be any doubt that JonBenet fell into an instant coma after the head injury? (end quote)

    Q: I'd be interested in your medical opinon on this. Do you think JonBenet fell into a coma instantly?

    I'm not sure how you are using the term 'coma', but JB would certainly have lost consciousness immediately after the head blow. In many fatal head injuries, the victim may have a period of lucidity that precedes the brain swelling (which causes unconsciousness), but in JBs case there is no chance of that.


    #5 - Q: Would the attacker have HEARD any noise of JonBenet's skull cracking when the head blow was struck?

    Keep in mind that living bone is not hard like a rock. It is porous and relatively soft. THere would definitely have been an audible noise from the impact of the blunt instrument making contact with the scalp, but it would difficult for any lay person to distinguish the sound of impact from the sound of the skull fracturing.
     
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks so much for going to all the trouble to ask these questions, rashomon. And thanks to Elvis for answering them.
     
  8. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you for posting this discussion with Elvislives/Elvis. Her answers are very informative and interesting. Please let the good doctor know she is more than welcome as a member of FFJ if she so desires.
     
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you for sharing this with us, rashomon. It is good you have someone like an Emergency Room MD to ask good questions like this.
     
  10. Little

    Little Member

    John Meyer has announced plans to retire

    Boulder County to search for new forensic pathologist
    Competition for pathologists is fierce
    By Laura Snider Camera Staff Writer
    Posted: 10/23/2009 06:02:46 PM MDT

    Boulder County will soon lose its go-to man for performing autopsies -- and he won't be easy to replace.

    John Meyer, who has been performing autopsies for Boulder County death investigations since 1982, has announced plans to retire, leaving the county in the tough position of finding a new forensic pathologist.

    Forensic pathologists -- doctors specialized in determining the manner and cause of death, particularly in cases of homicides, suicides, and sudden or suspicious deaths -- are in short supply, and the competition among cities and counties to attract one can be fierce.

    "To get someone formally trained in a good program who is board-certified in ... forensic pathology isn't easy," said John Howard, a forensic pathologist and president of the National Association of Medical Examiners. "There's always been a job open -- or many jobs open -- around the country for my entire career. And I've been doing this for 21 years."

    On Friday, eight jobs were listed on the association's Web site, and all of them offered salaries between $150,000 and $250,000.

    Now, Boulder County does not pay for a full-time forensic pathologist. Meyer, who works for Boulder Community Hospital, performs autopsies for the county on a per-case basis.

    Meyer was the Boulder County coroner from 1987 to 2002 and worked on such high-profile cases as the JonBenet Ramsey murder.
    Read entire article here:
    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_13629251
     
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks for posting this, Little. Oh my. How are they going to try that intruder now?
     
  12. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Confusion about the exact location of the neck knot

    From the autopsy report:
    But this autopsy photo shows the neck knot more on the right side of the neck, not in the midline of the posterior neck:

    ***Warning ***Autopsy photo***
    http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceright.jpg
     
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