Bonita Papers

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    This is another believable reason fb and makes sense to me!

    What flashed into my head was Patsy putting the red top on JonBenét "out of spite" because she had refused to wear it earlier in the evening and was showing her who was the boss (?).
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, I must be suffering from a form of...something...because I seem to be the only person on the forums who sees that the large bruise on the left front neck was caused by the cord. I have written about this so many times, and no one ever responds, but then it always comes back up as this bruise was caused by anything but that cord. So I must be just wrong.

    Fr Brown, or anyone (if you are able to look at the graphic autopsy photos), could you look at this group of photos and give me your opinion? Since no one ever responds, I don't know if they're just too polite to say KK you're wack or what.

    I did a crude line-drawing on an autopsy photo to demonstrate what I see. WARNING: these are autopsy photos!

    Thanks in advance.
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Continuing with the "Bonita Papers":

    I notice that Patsy's father is said in this to have babysat for the children. Keep in mind that Nedra in fact still lived in the family home in Georgia while Mr. Paugh lived in Boulder in an apt.

    In the general timeline of the activities and travels of the Ramseys in the month before the murder, John and Patsy went to New York the first week of Dec. for a few days with the Stines. During that time, I've read, the Paughs took care of the children in Boulder, including attending to them during the Christmas Parade when JonBenet rode on a car as a beauty queen and Burke marched with the Boy Scouts, if memory serves. That was a Friday night. John and Patsy returned the next day, which included a company party that Saturday night--maybe that was the celebration over the billion dollar in sales, or maybe it was the company Christmas party? Can't remember, but I think it was one of those.

    I bring this up because it was 10 days later that Patsy made her three calls to Dr. Beuf after hrs., though she had no memory of why when questioned about it in '98 by LE. This is all hard to pin down, not only because of Patsy's conveniently bad memory, but because the day the calls have been said to have been made by Patsy to Dr. Beuf is also the day JB was in a pageant herself--Dec. 17th. I've always thought this was odd: JB is in a pageant in the morning/afternoon, then Patsy calls the pediatrician three times within an hour after the office was closed, 8 days later JB is murdered in her home, and Patsy somehow can't remember what was ailing her daughter, the day of her last pageant, that was so important?

    It wouldn't be nearly as puzzling had the autopsy not found that JB had been molested prior to the night she was murdered. In fact, the autopsy report lists injuries to the hymen that suggests to me the child had been molested over time. The list of people who had access to JB over time who could have been alone with her to commit sexual assault is short. So Grandpa being a babysitter is interesting. In light of the fact that we've been told he flew on standby Christmas night back to Atlanta is just another strange thing that seems like a little too much coincidence to dismiss out of hand. But I certainly do not know the truth of this, and with a case full of astonishing coincidences that can be nothing but, Mr. Paugh could have been a wonderful grandpa to JonBenet, so that must be said.

    But someone was molesting JonBenet over a period of time before her death, I believe the autopsy proves. So this claim in the "Bonita Papers" caught my eye.

    Or course, former Miss America Marilyn Van Derbur was consulted by the BPD on the molestation, because she is a leading expert in the field of child abuse, being an incest survivor herself. Her views on this case are fascinating to me because I believe this is the key to the murder in one way or another.
  4. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I agree with you, and have stated this same opinion about this "bruise". The confusion may be that the coroner referred to it as the "roughly triangular parchment-like abrasion", and not a bruise. That may confuse some people. I have even referred people to that same link, clearly showing that ALL these strangulation victims have similar marks, though varying in size. They all represent blood pooling under the skin at a pressure point where the ligature pressed in the deepest.
    This wasn't a true bruise anyway. Bruises are purplish to yellow, and represent injuries to the capillaries, which then bleed a bit under the skin into the surrounding tissue.
    I don't know how many strangulation victims this coroner had seen, but I bet JB was the first one. Any coroner, though, should have studied what injuries such victims would be expected to have; this is important in cases where a victim may have been killed by other means, then a rope out around their neck and a suicide staged. I am not suggesting that in this case, merely stating that even a coroner who had no experience with a ligature strangulation or hanging victim should have known what this mark really was, and identified it as such.
  5. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    You could be right, kk. But, IMO, the bruise doesn't fit with that thin cord. If there was a knot in the front of that cord, I could more believe such a bruise being made as the knot slipped up the neck. But I'm not very certain about my feelings here.
  6. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Very interesting train of thought, koldkase. If I was forced to lay a grand of my money down on the motive, in this case, I would have to say the motive was to silence the little child. I always thought BR or JAR were the main suspects if this was the motive (thought JAR could have hired a hit), but, you've really caught my interest with this baby sitting thing...Stands to reason that grandpa, since he was living in Boulder, would be a convenient sitter and that would give him easy access. So, do we know if grandpa was in Boulder that Christmas night?
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks so much for sharing your insights on this, DeeDee. You always put things so precisely in technical language which I can never remember myself without looking it up for the thousandth time. You have a great memory. I used to have a decent one...but alas, no more.

    I watched a video of Dr. Meyer testifying a few years ago in the murder of a baby in Boulder Co.--the Midyette trials. Dr. Meyer was such a wimp, I was astonished to see him almost change his credible testimony about the autopsy results when simply challenged by the defense. I thought then that he'd have been fairly useless in the JB case if a trial had been held.

    I'm sure you know he's now retired. Just as well, I guess. Maybe they have a more seasoned and better trained M.E. now.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, we see what we see. Without a trial, we can just do our best.

    One thing though about the cord being too thin for the large bruise: are you taking into consideration that the cord rolled up the neck? If you look at the photo that Christmas morning--the one with Patsy and JB--you can see that the necklace with the cross hangs down the front of JB's top several inches. Then look at the chain rolled up into the cord in the autopsy photos. The cord grabbed and twisted it as it rolled against the skin, actually abrading the skin on the neck as well. That's where the bruises and petechia we see on the neck came from--the cord and chain digging into the skin as they were dragged and rolled upward, the cord pulled ever tighter.

    If that makes any sense....
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Marilyn Van Derbur was molested by her own father from the age of five to the age of 18, when she left home. It's a terrible story, but one which she only gathered the courage to tell after decades of such suffering, I cannot imagine it. When she finally did go public, it was because she had worked to open a clinic in Denver for sexual abuse victims and she got outed by the media. But for her sister speaking out and admitting that their father also molested her, too--something Marilyn did not know until then--Marilyn's own mother was set to denounce, along with the general public, as a liar. Marilyn's father was a very rich and powerful Colorado businessman with lots of political connections all the way to the governor's mansion there.

    Because of Marilyn's courage and pioneering work to help other sexual abuse victims when there was little help available, she is a respected and knowledgeable expert in the field herself because she has worked with professionals in developing studies and treatments for the victims of sexual abuse. She also is a featured speaker on the subject who has touched the lives of many whom she spent countless hours listening to their stories.

    So it was natural enough for the BPD to call upon her in this investigation early on. She eventually spoke about the case on LKLive. If you haven't seen that interview, it's worth googling. She basically said the tape on the mouth was a clear symbolic message: you will not speak of it. Subconscious perhaps, but I agree.

    The thing that has always struck me is the similarities between Patsy Ramsey's life and Van Derbur's. Both were Miss Amercia contestants, competitive, socialites--hiding huge secrets. We know what Marilyn's secret was.

    But I doubt we will ever know if Patsy had that same secret, or who was molesting JonBenet. Van Derbur learned at her father's funeral and shortly after that he had molested far more than his own daughters in his long life when other victims came forward to her. As much as she knew of his vile nature and his power to conceal his awful crimes, she never imagined until he died that he had other victims, even until he died, she realized.

    That's how good these perps are at controlling their victims and concealing their ongoing crimes. Van Derbur speaks in her autobiography, Miss America By Day, about her strange relationship with her father; she had what she called her "Day Child" and her "Night Child." When she went to school, was home, even alone with her father in more public areas in the home, she treated him as a loving father whom she adored, never thought of what she dreaded when darkness fell for 13 years of her life as a child. At night, she endured hell, complete with betrayal and evil so profound it would haunt her for all her life in ways as diabolical as his acts against her. But when day came again, she went about life as if she were living in the perfect, privileged family, mentally compartmentalizing the truth as if it did not exist.

    There will be no admission of guilt forthcoming in this case. Few will ever admit such a thing if the victim confronts them, and JB will never do that, will she? Van Derbur stated that if her parents had ever thought she would tell this secret, they'd have killed her and then had lunch. For years she herself would have killed to keep this secret, she wrote.

    Anyway, since there is a short list of possible abusers of JB over a period of time, that points to someone from the inner circle. I don't think we'll ever know, not unless there is a confession backed up by evidence. It could happen...and that is one of the few things left which would shock me in this case.
  10. mBm

    mBm Banned for Stupidity

    kk, did you mean to say "he's now retired"? I thought I had remembered seeing something about Dr. Meyer having retired. I was looking up something about Dr. Doberson (?) and learned he was the coroner of Arapahoe County. I ran a search again and found some confusing information. I'm going to post links to both articles and a small item from each. Maybe after reading them, you can determine exactly what's what.


    "John Meyer, M.D. is board certified in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology and the subspecialty of Forensic Pathology. He served as Boulder County Coroner from 1986 to 2002 and currently is Chief Pathologist for the Boulder County Coroner's Office."


    "John Meyer, who has been performing autopsies for Boulder County death investigations since 1982, has announced plans to retire, leaving the county in the tough position of finding a new forensic pathologist.

    "Forensic pathologists -- doctors specialized in determining the manner and cause of death, particularly in cases of homicides, suicides, and sudden or suspicious deaths -- are in short supply, and the competition among cities and counties to attract one can be fierce.

    "Now, Boulder County does not pay for a full-time forensic pathologist. Meyer, who works for Boulder Community Hospital, performs autopsies for the county on a per-case basis.

    "Meyer was the Boulder County coroner from 1987 to 2002 and worked on such high-profile cases as the JonBenet Ramsey murder.

    "The county commissioners will make a decision about funding the new position Nov. 5. Concerned that there isn't enough work in Boulder County to justify a full-time position, the commissioners also said they'd like to look into the possibility of sharing a full-time pathologist with other nearby counties."

    I couldn't determine who, if anyone, has replaced him. But as you can see, the articles say he retired as County Coroner in 2002. And one says he is now Chief Pathologist for the Boulder County Coroner's Office, while the second article implies that he has been the County's Forensic Pathologist since then. I wonder if perhaps they abolished the full-time position of coroner and after 2002, he served as Chief Patrologist or just as a Forensics Pathologist on a part-time basis. I wouldn't be surprised if they could have allowed him to retire and draw his pension, but gave him another job which would make him draw two salaries from the County. (I've known for things like this to be done. Just depends on your politics!) But then they could have abolished his job and downgraded him, keeping him on a part-time basis.
  11. mBm

    mBm Banned for Stupidity

    kk, what an interesting, insightful post! I never really gave much thought to Van Derbur's claim, so I'm glad you told her story. It's hard to believe that her mother must have known what was going on and allowed it to continue.

    But one thing I do wonder about is the following: "Van Derbur learned at her father's funeral and shortly after that he had molested far more than his own daughters in his long life when other victims came forward to her. As much as she knew of his vile nature and his power to conceal his awful crimes, she never imagined until he died that he had other victims, even until he died, she realized." Since her father was a powerful figure and he had extended his molestations to include other victims, I have to wonder if there might indeed have been (and perhaps is still?) pedo rings operating in Colorado. Steven Singular certainly seems to think so. And if participation is widespread among the wealthy, politically connected, who knows but that it could have included the Ramseys? Reminds me, too, of the weirdo who Fr. Rol allowed to live on the church premises. I hate to go there, though...

    Anyway, it makes me want to buy the book. Thanks for bringing up the subject.
  12. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Great post! There are two things people should realize about these molestation cases.

    1. It is extremely hard for the victim to "rat" on the perpetrator. First of all, there is the embarassment of having to come forth with such information. The victim feels as if they will always be looked down on for having been part of such a humiliating relationship.

    2. The person, who is capable of doing such a perverted act, is capable of doing almost anything to cover it up including murder. The person, in a perverted way, becomes angry at the victim when he or she perceives the victim is talking or ready to talk.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, I did mean "NOW" retired. Thanks for catching my typo. It was late, eyes don't see like they used to, plus as you know, it's so hard to proof read your own stuff.

    Thanks for the info. I imagine they pay Dr. Meyers on a case by case basis, if he's needed. In Boulder County, that is probably more than it used to be, so having him as a standby is a good idea, I guess. I just think the man was overcome with the new technology and procedures, like a lot of aged professionals in the fields of forensic science and LE. He botched the fingernail collection at JB's autopsy, we know that. I personally think that may be the source of the unidentified DNA, as he of course undressed the body and handled the underwear, which his report indicates. But that's another argument. lol
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Van Derbur says that the other victims were children from her neighborhood some of whom she actually knew, I'm thinking, though it's been a while since I read the book.

    It is a fascinating book, but be prepared to sob, as it's heartbreaking. Van Derbur has a website where you can order the book, or she used to. She also includes stats and info on sexual abuse, etc., in the book.

    Singular has yet to prove any of his theories about child sex rings that I have seen. While I have no doubt that children are systematically abused in horrible ways by their parents and others sometimes, I don't believe a word of what Nancy Krebs said because she lied so much, how can I? Whether it was because she was a heavy drug user, a fabulist, or simply wanted to cash in on this murder like so many others, I don't know, but nothing she said made sense, was logical, or could be proven.

    While I do ponder if Patsy was a sexual abuse victim herself, I really see no evidence either she or John would have let JonBenet be used for sexual abuse by others in a child sex ring. I also can't believe Patsy wouldn't have noticed her child missing for long periods of time and coming back traumatized. Those kids of injuries also bleed. Which is actually what I think finally tipped Patsy off as to what was happening to JonBenet, but I don't think it was outside the inner circle, or Patsy would never have kept quiet about it, IMO.

    Of course, I'm only speculating, as well. Truthfully, there is no theory in this case that isn't out and out unbelievable, because what was done to this child, and subsequently to this case, is so crazy that 14 years later we're all still chasing our tails.
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Van Derbur discusses this in her book. People think it's so black and white, but it's anything but....

    In fact, I doubt there is a more complicated, bigger taboo in our society. Imagine a person who values her place at the top of society fearing exposure in such a scandal.

    The victim, a child, has so little protection when his/her parent, a family member, a trusted clergy, a priest, a Boy Scout leader, a teacher, etc., is the perp. That's why they're so easy to victimize; they have the least power.
  16. mBm

    mBm Banned for Stupidity

    First, I believe that Singular, like most of us, isn't in a position to prove anything. Like us, he is an outsider, having only what he's been able to learn from others upon which to base his theories or speculations. I understand, though, that he is working on another book. And I believe that, at least, he's still trying to learn the truth behind this horrible crime. Possibly he will be able to provide some evidence to support his theory. And any new information I'm sure will be welcomed.

    But the main thing I wanted to address is your comment about how it is so crazy that 14 years have gone by... and we still have no solution to this crime. I commented years ago about how JonBenet looked "different" in her last photos. This is only opinion, but I could see a different child altogether in those last photos. It's hard to explain, but she looked pale and in some, there were dark circles under her eyes. There was a bruise on the INSIDE of one of her arms... something that IMO couldn't have been attributed to rough kid play. She also seemed to be (and this is the hard part to explain) kind of "holding back" rather than the exuberant, cheerfully confident little girl seen in past photos.

    In my opinion, there were outward signs that something unusual was going on in her life. Although some have scoffed at the report of her sitting on the stairs, crying, and while saying, "I don't feel pretty", I think there's a very good possibility that this actually happened. And WHAT could have made her feel that way? I think her being molested is possibly the ONLY thing.

    Now we learn that the tape over her mouth is a sign denoting concern about her "telling" about her molestation. I think this tells us quite frankly the motive behind the crime.
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    New info is always welcomed, as long as it's based in something more than speculation he's already offered--for profit, and causing great harm to one family without so much as a caution. Singular lost all credibility with me over the libel he promoted concerning the White family, which he expected to be well paid for in one way or another, I believe. He's going to have to have a lot more than another book full of wild speculation based on a certified--and I mean, a legally certified code 5051--nutjob.

    We have numerous reports, as you point out, that JonBenet was in significant stress. We can see the pageant videos ourselves, and while some think these were innocent, I think the nature of training children for these is not healthy or age appropriate, IMO. I agree that bruise above the elbow in the inner upper arm was not innocent. Nedra said it was from a bird cage that fell on the child, but I see nothing that supports that. Bird cages have sharp edges, or even circular edges, but they don't have fingers, and that bruise looks exactly like a thumbprint to me. It's also in the exact location it would be if someone grabbed her by the upper arm and pulled on her for some reason. Why not admit that if it was an accident? Lying about it--that raises another red flag, IMO.

    One of the more recent reports of questionable behavior in JonBenet's patterns, I believe, was from a close Ramsey friend, Mrs. Archuleta. Her strange disclosure in her only interview with a reporter of which I am aware is most telling, considering she fully believes the Ramseys to be innocent in this crime. Let me find that article for a memory refresher. BRB.

    Okay, knowing what we know from the autopsy, that Patsy called Dr. Beuf's office three time in one hr. after the office closed on Dec. 17th, this is an astonishing story Mrs. Archuleta tells:

    Now add in what was written in the "Bonita Papers"--which I say up front we have no way of confirming some of what she wrote, it was a first draft, and there are many errors in the info in it:

    Of course there is much more, but I picked the more compelling parts in relation to this topic.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here is one photo of the bruise you mentioned, mBm:


  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I was looking for this photo for you, learnin, and I noticed something in another I've looked at a thousand times. It occurred to me that maybe that photo would give a better perspective of the neck structure, as relates to the bruise on the left anterior neck. As I was thinking, I began to feel the structure of my own neck, and I may have an AHA! moment. As I turned my head, thinking the child was on her stomach, her head turned to the side, face on carpet (chin had carpet fiber and green paint particle from paint tray or broken brush stuck to it), my large sterno-mastoid muscles on each side stuck out.

    That's when I thought, oh, if hers were also stuck out like this when the cord was being pulled, that would be the part of her neck skin that took the most damage--and I can better see how that large bruise happened.

    Now, if I can only explain what I'm thinking.

    Here's the photo Christmas morning with the necklace:


    Here is a side shot of JB from that morning--see how the front of her neck leads?

    Now I'm going to try to find another photo demonstrating the sterno-mastoid muscles protruding when the head is turned. BRB

    Let's see if this explains it better:



    I think this might do it: look at the shadows around the "jugular notch."

    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  20. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Yes, this muscle would certainly be prominent with the head turned like that especially in a thin neck. I really can't argue against the bruise being caused by the cord and necklace being pulled up the neck.

    What a sad picture showing that think, in a few hours, it would be entwined in that ligature.....
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