Burke Ramsey... the missing link

YumYum, I'm going to let you answer your own question by asking you to use your imagination.

Let's suppose Burke killed JB when she tried to cry out for help while he was playing "Doctor" on her with the paint stick... Suppose the parents had been totally up-front about that happening and told the police everything...

Just where do you think Burke would be right now? Would he not be FAMOUS as the boy who killed his beauty queen little sister while molesting her? Would other parents have just kept quiet about this sick kid being in the same classroom as their young daughters? Do you think he would even be seen out in public? Do you think he would actually be able to attend college right now with all the other kids tormenting him by yelling derogatory comments they think are funny? "Hey incest boy!" - "Hey Burke, bringing your stick to the party tonight?"...just imagine.

If Burke was responsible, J & P's MOTIVE for risking EVERYTHING was saving Burke from a lifetime of torment. They just may have pulled all the right strings.

 

I agree with you wombat, and would like to point out that even if there was something, like a rounded corner of a marble countertop that fits the hole in her skull perfectly, the POSITION she would have had to be in would not be plausable. Who would be holding a child like a battering ram in order to hit the rounded corner perfectly straight on?

Whatever punched the hole in her skull either hit her head perfectly FLAT, or was well-rounded. If it had any edge whatsoever, that edge would have damaged her scalp.

 

Oh how I long to understand the true physics explained above. My husband, ex retired engineer helps me to understand only so much of it. I have seen a few mothers in supermarkets grabbing their children by the hand and dragging them, when they are angry, and I often wonder what happens when they are at home, and she does the same thing, only throws them around, with their head maybe striking some solid object (?).

I wonder if anyone could set up an example of matchstick figures of a child being thrown against a kitchen countertop, or the solid items in a bathroom (?). It's all very well for the experts in physics here to fully understand this, but it doesn't really help those of us who don't. Seeing a diagram of it, with the height of JonBenét being taken into consideration, would help me a great deal.

Am I asking too much here?

 

I'm a visual person, and need to see a diagram of how it may have happened, Texan.

 

just try

just try it yourself - I don't think you will need a diagram. I tried it myself and while you could get in the position required to cause a fracture like that it is awkward. I believe that she was hit by an object because of the location of the fracture. You can hit someone with an object and the skin remain intact. It depends on the object. A childs skull has a little more "give" in it than an adults skull.
I also saw a convincing picture of a pathologist showing how a flashlight would make a wound almost exactly like that. I think it was Cyril Wecht. I don't believe he is always right but in this instance his argument is very convincing.

 

The illustration was intended to be generic for the purpose of
explaining the relevant principles. Of course, to be precise,
there are many other variable that would have to be known such as
skull density, elasticity, etc. With the physics principles
applied, all of these elements would have to be factored into a
revealing formula. We don’t have those specs, and even if we did,
I personally don’t know what formula it would take to get the
total, or near total picture. My calculations are general, but
specific enough to rule out the flashlight and other objects.

“I didn't think the battery example is germaine.†(Ibid)

I think it is. It’s the same principle of energy (power) being
released with time as a factor. However, since setting up proof
could be a very long task, I don’t think it’s worth the effort.

“Also, the statement "An applied force will follow the weakest
lines from the point of contact" is incorrect - FAILURE occurs at
the weakest point. When the stresses are greater than the
material's capacity, the object will fail (break) at that point.
If forces followed the "weakest line" we could save all the money
we spend making structures stronger.†(Ibid)

This criticism I will accept as a valid correction. Obviously, I
should have said fissures will occur at the weakest points within
the radiation pattern. Thanks. I won’t make this mistake again.

 

My personal experience tells me something different.

“Then consider how high on the side of her head the fracture was
- it was closer to the top than the side.â€

So is my scar, and I know how I got it. I was running lateral to
the wall and wood frame around the water fountain. Another player
grabbed my shirt collar and checked my momentum in this
direction. The check spun me around and I went down with my back
to the wall. As my backside hit the floor, my head whipped into
the frame around the fountain. As it tuned out, my head hit high
and near center. Had my head been turned to the right a bit, the
scar would be at the approximate location on the skull as shown
in the JonBenet photos.

Of course, many factors in my experience are different from the
fatal experience of JonBenet. The point is, the area of impact is
quite possible from going down backward with the head whipped
into something. I have no idea what that something is, but the
potential is not ruled out by physics.

 

It is a good thing that you didn't have scissors in your hands, or you might have put your eye out.

Heymom

 

But the Ramseys bed wasn't made. Jbr's wasn't made. Her other bed had stuff and things on it; Burke's didn't. I'm wondering if he slept in the other bed, and perhaps the picture was taken from on it so it doesn't show. The bed in the picture is closer to the door, closer to a bathroom. I'd think he'd sleep in that bed. Oh, well.

 

Yeah, I guess this is somewhat tangential anyway. We're all speculating about the beds because we weren't there and LE didn't take all the photos and evidence we would have wanted them to. Anyway, Fleet White wasn't in the Ramsey's room, but if he went and got Burke, he might have just thrown the covers up on the bed.

Of course, if the police had told everyone in the house NOT to touch ANYTHING, and also to GET OUT, there wouldn't be this question in the first place.

Heymom :tsktsk:

 

At first, I sort of bought into the the idea that JonBenet's skull fracture might have been the result of her being flung against a hard object ... like a bathtub edge, a doorjam, or a countertop. Any kid knows that if you snag a running playmate by the shirt and swing him/her around, a tremendous centrifugal force can be created ... as in crack-the-whip. Of course, that eliminates the accident occurring in the small bathroom ... there simply isn't room to generate the force needed. In the kitchen, or elsewhere ... sure ... but NOT in the bathroom.

But, that wasn't what changed my mind. I have since dismissed that idea due to what I consider a fatal flaw.

Fatal flaw?

Well ... I buy into the sequence of events that says that the blow to the head came AFTER JonBenet was garotted to a point of near death. You do NOT accidently fling a lifeless body against a hard object and crack the skull. Even on purpose, very few of us could hurl a stationary body with enough force to crack the skull.

Nope ... the blow was administered DELIBERATELY. A long-handled MagLite would be a possible candidate. The whip-like acceleration would create tremendous clubhead speed ... and the momentum of the weight of the batteries would be more than sufficient to crack a skull ... even in the hands of someone who is not especially strong. A frying pan could do the same thing.

Sooooo ... the fatal flaw is the sequence of events. The skull did NOT hit something, and crack ... something hit the skull and fractured it.


BTW ... EasyWriter, Wombat,and others ... GREAT STUFF! It's a little technical for my dim wit, but I intend to re-read it all cuz there's much to be learned and understood. And thanks for the civil discourse!

... just my two cent$ ...


...YumYum

 

YumYum, there was a talking head pathologist who said the same thing, the reason being that there was no bleeding in the cavity of the skull. Therefore, JB was already dead when she received the blow to the head.

 

:jumpie:

 

You are very welcome. This sort of discussion makes me SO HAPPY. :clap:

 

EasyWriter ... I have no dispute with your analysis of the cords tied around the wrists. I believe that was part of the post death staging. It has no bearing upon the sequence of events pertaining to the headblow, and the garotting.

The EVIDENCE that the garotting came first, IMO, is clear. Had the blow to the head occurred FIRST, then the bleeding inside the skull would have been far greater than what was observed. Furthermore, had the strangulation occurred after a near-deathly headblow, then many signs of asphyxiation would not have been present. IMO, the sequence of events is clear.


And I would like to address the "flat surface" versus "curved surface" (MagLite) argument ...

I think that you have ignored the fact that a skull is a curved surface ... like a ball or a mellon. If a firm ball (a bowling ball for instance) is dropped on the floor (our flat surface), the point of impact is a very small area ... a point of contact. It is NOT a wide area of contact as you suggest. The force of impact would bee centered on that small point of contact, and NOT be distributed over a wide surface area as I believe that you suggest. Therefore, the impact area from a FLAT surface would not be appreciably different from that of any hard object impact upon a HARD curved surface ... including a MagLite or a frying pan.

I would also take exception to another part of your argument related to the possibility of a flashlight blow. You seem to focus upon the HEAD of the flashlight as the and single and ONLY point of contact.

I would suggest that there was likely more than one point of contact if a flashlight were used. Both the BARREL of the MagLite AND the HEAD of the flashlight could have made contact nearly simultaneously. Those points of contact would be a few inches apart, and the impact force would be similar at both points of contact. That may well explain the direction of the crack in the skull. The radiating forces from the two points of contact would each weaken the skull area between those two points of contact ... with a COMBINED force suffient to crack the skull, yet NOT break the scalp. That suggests to moi that while neither single point of contact might have cracked the skull OR split the scalp, the combined force just MIGHT be enough to crack the skull without splitting the scalp.

That may also explain why the scalp was relatively undamaged. For instance, a force necessary to crack the skull from ONE point of contact might be 100 pounds of force ... and presumably would split the scalp open. A mere 50 pounds of force would (for examples sake) NOT crack the skull OR split the scalp. But TWO points of contact ... each with 50 pounds of impact force behind it would NOT split the scalp, but when COMBINED may well crack the skull.

I'm no engineer, so please excuse my layman's terminology. I hope that my point is made.

Think of it this way. A 50 pound person standing on thin ice won't crack the ice. But TWO 50 pound people standing on that ice in close proximity WOULD crack the ice ... and the cracks may radiate between those two points of contact.

I hope I've made my conceptualization clear ... and I welcome any and all corrections.


...YumYum

 

Carol, I believe this is what you are refering to - however, note the additional info:

Adams County Coroner Mike Dobersen said he reviewed the autopsy photographs and thinks there would have been much more internal bleeding inside the brain if JonBenét had been struck first and strangled later.

But Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding.

"We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

http://www.boulderdailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/03lrams.html

 

Note the line doesn't say "8 1/2" skull fracture with a bone displacement". (approx. 40% skull circumference)

I think that makes a small difference, no?

 

I'm not sure it would make any difference. They remove the entire top of a person's skull for some types of brain surgery and the person doesn't bleed to death. There is a skin-like membrane covering the brain called the "dura mater" which contains internal bleeding.