Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cherokee, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Pearlsim, we were posting at the same time about the sadness of seeing that Christmas morning photo of JonBenet.

    Another poster mentioned that Burke had his own set of golf clubs. I don't know if they were junior clubs or not, but I would think so since he was probably at, or just under, 5 feet tall when JonBenet died.
     
  2. Karen

    Karen Member

    The pj's she's wearing in this Christmas morning photo do not look to me like the pj's that are seen on her bed, the top, in the crime scene photo.

    Were her bottoms ever found by the CSI's and booked into evidence? If I remember correctly koldkase enlarged that photo once and I thought we could see a small part of them peeking out from underneath something. I'll see if I can find the photo. Found it:

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    [​IMG][/IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Is this the one you mean, Karen? Here's a bit more of one of the photos, with what looks like pink edging on the bedclothing to me?

    I've been looking for years for any reference to the location of the bottoms to the pajamas JB was wearing that morning. I think the top is turned inside out and the large circles of fabric were the armholes?
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    Koldkase,

    Looks like a pink label on the back of the neck on your photo to the right, with JonBenét photo beside it. Looks like the end of one sleeve showing!
     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh yes, quite right, Elle. Now that you jogged my memory, Patsy even mentions the label she can see in the photo, at the neck of the top.

    Good catch!
     
  6. Karen

    Karen Member

    Yes koldkase thank you! These are the enlarged pics I was referring to. Now that I can see it all together like this I change my mind. It does look like the top JB was wearing in the Christmas morning photo. However, those bottoms, they almost look like the thermal longjohns she was found in. If the pj bottoms and the proper sized underwear she was wearing are both missing then that's something I hadn't thought about before. Today I can't see the edge of the "supposed" pj bottoms we thought we had found in that photo before. Can someone point it out to me? I had thought she was wearing a looser fitting pj bottoms, pink, Christmas morning, but what is in the photo looks almost like longjohns. If these longjohn type are her original bottoms and also the bottoms she was found in then the whole Patsy "couldn't lay her hand on the pj bottoms so she put the longjohn bottoms on her" that night is fabricated.
    Something else. No pj bottoms accounted for, for Jonbenet, but Burkes pj bottoms in her room? Weird.
     
  7. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member


    We don't know for a fact that they WERE BR's PJ's found in her room. These were MALE detectives looking at a photo- not the actual clothing. Men- even men with children, simply do not know that much about kids clothes and sizes particularly. (no offense to our esteemed male posters). They can't see the milk in the fridge either. Yet- everyone knows a woman's uterus is also a tracking device: "Honey, where's my....".
     
  8. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I notice in the pic, where JBR is standing by the Christmas tree, she is not wearing socks. Okay. She slept without socks and was in the habit of running around, in the winter, with no socks.

    Does this mean that she was dressed for bed before being assaulted? She had dust and lint on the bottoms of her feet. Thinking out loud, here. If she came home and got busy playing with toys, etc., she probably wouldn't have taken socks and shoes off. So, it seems she was dressed for bed before the assault occured, no?

    Once the head trauma occurred, she was never standing on her feet again.
     
  9. Karen

    Karen Member

    Nice catch Learnin!
     
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    Karen,

    With you and KK talking about JonBenét's jammies, my mind was taken back to Patsy Ramsey being annoyed at JonBenét for not wearing what she wanted her to wear to the White's party. While searching for this information I came across this conversation between Patsy and the detectives relating to her jammies.
    reTRIP
    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm

    I remember when ACandyrose created this Flight 755 15th Street. She is one very special person when it comes to the JonBenét case. Thank you ACR for all your hard work here!
     
  11. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

    More About Golf Clubs

    OK, here I go with a little more rearranging of deck chairs on the Titanic, but I thought this fell in line with the thinking on this thread from the past.
    KoldKase established a fabuous library of photos (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9777-Ramsey-house-basement-photos) and recently while reading something in JR’s 1998 interview, I recalled the golf club photos she posted. What I’d read recently pertained to Smit’s and Kane’s questioning about golf clubs being moved:

    June 1998 John Ramsey Interview by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Golf Clubs and Golfing)
    0275
    8 LOU SMIT: Okay. This here is a photograph.
    9 (INAUDIBLE) you golf clubs, okay? Now, you're a
    10 golfer, I assume?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can claim that.
    12 LOU SMIT: Now this is a -- just take a
    13 look at this. This is actually a photograph of
    14 golf clubs. It's located down near the wine cellar
    15 in the basement. And I just wanted you to take a
    16 look and see if you see anything in regards to
    17 that that seems out of place, or maybe if any
    18 clothes are missing there?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything that
    20 looks odd. Looks like there's two woods in the
    21 bag. I think I have three and I can't really tell
    22 if there's three or not. There's a putter, eight
    23 irons, seven or eight. (INAUDIBLE) I don't see,
    24 no.
    25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph

    0276
    1 number 374. And that photograph was taken during
    2 the crime scene investigation after the search
    3 warrant was obtained. So that was after.
    4 Now I have photographs 72 and 71. And these are
    5 photographs taken during what we can describe as
    6 the kidnapping phase, when the crime scene techs
    7 were there. And that's before the body was found.
    8 And I wanted to show you this. This was taken
    9 earlier that morning. And I want you to take a
    10 look at these photos and do you see anything out
    11 of place and anything which would draw your
    12 attention, or if anything is missing that you can
    13 remember?
    0276
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been
    15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks
    16 like.
    17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on
    19 it.
    20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been
    22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually
    23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.


    Here are the two photos referenced. Number 72 is the photo taken early in the morning during the kidnapping phase. The other photo, with the golf bags lined up beside each other, was taken after JonBenét had been found:

    072basement.jpg

    img802b.jpg

    Here’s what looks to be a tag in Patsy’s handwriting hanging from one of the clubs, with writing which resembles the letter “J†she used sometimes. (A Christmas card in her handwriting I’m posting here as well, so someone can judge whether it looks like her writing. I’m no expert in this.)

    golfclubtag.jpg

    christmascardwritingPR.jpg

    The rest of the tag is faint, but I believe it may spell out “Johnâ€. I hadn’t ever recalled that JR mentioned receiving any golf clubs for Christmas.

    Since I don’t believe the crime scene techs or detectives would have moved a bag, nor FW who was looking for JonBenét, it seems to point to the only other person who admitted to being in the basement that morning.

    Of course I don’t know, but it makes one wonder about the reason the two golf bags were lined up beside each other. There is something about the bags or the clubs which someone wanted to obscure. IMO
     
  12. otg

    otg Member

    You got me started, quest, so here goes...

    In this section of the interview that you posted it seems like Smit is showing Ramsey pictures taken at three different times that day. First, he shows him a picture of the golf clubs taken by investigators after the search warrant was issued (after the body was found) which he notes was photo #374. Next he shows him photos #71 and #72 -- what he describes as “photos taken during the kidnapping phase†(before the body was found). And then (right after showing photos #71 and #72) he shows him something he says was “taken earlier that morningâ€. So is he showing a picture (or pictures) taken earlier than #71 and #72? That’s what it seems to me by the progression of the questioning.

    First, here’s a better color version of the photo you included, quest (you might also be able to get a better look at the tag you had in question in your post). I think this would be photo #374, and that it was one of the photos leaked by The Globe. Notice in this photo the location of the two bags sitting side-by-side. Is this not just to the left of the doorway going into the WC? You can also see into the WC some of the paint cans, window frames, and other clutter that was inside:

    Golf Clubs.jpg

    Also in this photo we can see where the carpet ends before going into the WC and going into the “boiler roomâ€. There are electrical wires hanging down to the floor coming from a box that appears to be a breaker box. The wooden studs that the box is attached to are unpainted. This is all just to establish the location of this photo. Also, we can compare the location in the basement of this photo with the area shown in the following photo (#178) which shows the paint tote before it was taken into evidence (Notice the unpainted stud with the electrical wire hanging down to the floor and where the carpeting stops.):

    178paint-tote.jpg

    So I’m guessing that photo #72 was taken (as Smit said) during the “kidnapping phase†(before the body had been found) with the WC door still closed. Photo #178 had to have been taken after discovery of the body because the door going into the WC is visibly open. After the paint tote was photographed, taken into evidence, and the area processed for clues, the golf bags were probably moved by CSIs across the hallway to this area of the basement. Other things have been moved around also. Notice the laundry basket (which John mentions in the interview) and the corner of one of Burke’s presents in the photo which Kolar shows (Chapter-31) another CS picture (#148) of in the WC with some other presents. (What’s that doing in the basement BTW? Isn’t that the one John claimed at one time to be helping Burke put together on the first floor when they arrived home from the Whites’ party?) Photos of this present are posted by koldkase here:
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...basement-train-room-video&p=191354#post191354

    But back to the golf bags... Notice that there are two golf bags, both the same color. I’m not a golfer, but do golfers usually use a separate bag for their woods and irons? Or could one of the bags belong to someone else? Was Patsy a golfer? In photo #72, one bag is on the right in the photo and the other (larger) bag (the one with the name “John Ramsey†on the pouch) is over on the left piled on top of some junk/clutter. This is one of the photos taken before the body was discovered behind the closed door going into the WC shown in the photo. (Notice that all of the visible floor is carpeted as compared to the other photo.)

    Whoever transcribed this did a terrible job -- so many wrong words. Some we can figure out, some not so much. I think in the following section of the interview the word “clothes†is wrong and should be “clubsâ€, so that section should read:

    12 LOU SMIT: Now this is a -- just take a
    13 look at this. This is actually a photograph of
    14 golf clubs. It's located down near the wine cellar
    15 in the basement. And I just wanted you to take a
    16 look and see if you see anything in regards to
    17 that that seems out of place, or maybe if any
    18 (clubs) are missing there?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything that
    20 looks odd. Looks like there's two woods in the
    21 bag. I think I have three and I can't really tell
    22 if there's three or not. There's a putter, eight
    23 irons, seven or eight. (INAUDIBLE) I don't see,
    24 no.
    25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph
    1 number 374. And that photograph was taken during
    2 the crime scene investigation after the search
    3 warrant was obtained. So that was after.
    4 Now I have photographs 72 and 71. And these are
    5 photographs taken during what we can describe as
    6 the kidnapping phase, when the crime scene techs
    7 were there. And that's before the body was found.


    At this point, John has been shown #374 (after the body was found and the search warrant had been issued), and photos #71 and #72 (before the body was found). Then:

    8 And I wanted to show you this. This was taken
    9 earlier that morning.
    And I want you to take a
    10 look at these photos and do you see anything out
    11 of place and anything which would draw your
    12 attention, or if anything is missing that you can
    13 remember?

    So is this another photo that was taken at some point before #71 and #72?

    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been
    15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks
    16 like.
    17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on
    19 it.
    20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been
    22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually
    23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.
    24 LOU SMIT: So it looks like something has
    25 been moved between the time this picture was taken
    1 and this picture was taken?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like this cane (?)
    3 has been moved. It's hard to tell from the
    4 picture.
    5 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like those little
    7 marks (?)
    8 are right on the heel (?) in the back hallway.

    I’m not entirely sure what to make of all this. John admits to making two trips to the basement alone that morning. On the first trip before 8:00 am, he admits moving a chair and some other object out of his way. Other than for the CSIs to move objects out of their way as they process them and take them into custody, why else would anyone have reason to be moving the golf bags around after police arrived?
     
  13. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

    Thank you, otg,
    This helps me put more precise definition to my confusion! :D

    If CSI’s move things around when they photograph them, it is curious to me why they question JR about this. They also talk to Patsy about the golf bags and whether she owned any. (She did.) But she doesn’t identify one of those bags as hers.

    I was figuring the purpose of the photos is to identify the rooms and evidence which will be needed later for evaluation by LE. It does look like the photo #178 was taken after the crime, as you’ve identified, since the door to the wc is open. So then, it seems like the photo I attributed to #374 with the golf clubs right next to the wc, had to be a photo taken subsequent to the photo #178. (It's my best guess.)

    The BPD had a warrant for the paint tote on the evening of December 26th. The CSI had arrived at about 8-8:20 pm to review the crime scene, take photos, remove evidence.

    CSI came in again at 9:25 am the next morning December 27th; warrants were established for the golf bags in the paperwork signed at 3 pm. The warrant specifies removal of golf clubs and a golf club cover as evidence. Sometime during the day they must have taken this photo of the golf bags and clubs, which Kane and Smit identify as #374.

    I also don't know where to place any of the family members within the golf bag moves. It’s known the R family was at the Fernie home from the afternoon on. (BTW, the Fernie home is about 3.5 miles south of the R home at 755 15th.) Dr. B had provided sedative drugs for Patsy and BR, and maybe anyone else who needed medication. According to Schiller, JR had gone for a walk with JF and Dr. B at about 7 pm.

    Schiller also records that JR at about 8 pm went for a walk by himself. No one recorded when he returned. ST states that JR left Patsy a little after 9. Perhaps he took his walk alone then. Their time frames are different. It’s then mentioned that JR and friends left for the airport to pick up relatives, guessing this to be at about 10:15 pm. The group then returned to the Fernies’ at about midnight.
    _______

    I don’t understand the meaning of the transcription between Kane and JR either.

    Here I throw up my hands. I could utilize a variation of Kolar’s reasoning: The small and stealthy Foreign Faction entered the R home at 755 15th sometime between late at night on the 26th and before light on the 27th to move (and rummage?) those golf bags.

    But you may have landed on the right idea. Maybe the CSI’s did the whole rearranging of materials. And, oh noes, I’ve been looking at Smit’s questioning as one looks for the pony in the pile of “soil nhancers.†:)

    :pop:
     
  14. Elle

    Elle Member

    golf bags

    This is all very interesting. Thank you one and all for the time taken.
    My husband and I played golf, and I personally have never
    seen anyone use more than one golf bag; even with a golf
    cart.
     
  15. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

    About those golf bags

    Thank you, Elle. It's probably correct, that JR had only one golf bag. In the interest of further explanation and credit to poster Karen. She brought up the following point back in 2012, from FF: BF had raised another flag when she decided to contact investigators in early January, 1998. She and her son had seen photographs of golf clubs in a tabloid story about JonBenét while shopping in a grocery store, and her son recognized the set of clubs as belonging to BR.

    Also, to add some clarification to the Globe photo - when I saw the Globe photo in color, I had briefly considered that the Globe altered the photo of the golf bags in front of the wine cellar. I thought that the editors, in attempting to create a more dramatic photo, may have added the red blood stain on the carpet and the red stain on one of the golf clubs. It’s known that JB did not bleed externally from that head wound, and I’ve never read that there was blood mixed in the urine found on the carpet. At least it wasn’t ever stated in print. But when I studied the image again by enhancing in Photoshop, I could see that there was also a possibility Globe had ‘photoshopped’ the clubs against the wall outside the wc. (The vertical beam had been sprayed with brown color which splashed on to JR’s golf bag rim. Anyway, just my amateur thought.) Cynic posted the photo below on ws back in 2011, which may be more illustrative of the photo in question - #374, referenced in the ’98 interview with JR, Smit and Kane, but who knows since we don’t have that photo.

    anotherphotoofgolfclubsbase.jpg
     
  16. otg

    otg Member

    This is all too much for my little pea-brain; I’m getting a headache just trying to think about it. There were clubs everywhere, and they were apparently moved around several times during the day and in the investigation that followed. The real question, I guess, is why -- and does any of it have anything to do with the crime or the cover-up. It’s hard for us to figure out because there is so much we don’t know. Quest, you’ve done a fantastic job of trying to put together something of a timeline that might pertain to when the clubs could have been moved. I’d add to that the times that FW and JR both went individually to the basement before the body was “discovered”. According to John’s June, 1998 interview, he made a trip to the basement alone before the expected call at 8:00, and then he disappeared again after 10:00. I suspect that because of the questioning of JR about the movement of the golf bags, investigators were trying to find out if he might have been the one to move any of the bags -- and if so, why).

    Thanks, Elle. I didn’t think it was typical to use a separate bag for irons and woods, but I had to ask.

    A few more random thoughts about all this:

    • Notice that in photo #72 there is what looks like black covers on some of the clubs. It could be something else because it’s hard to make out what it is with any certainty. But it makes me wonder (since you brought up that golf club covers were included in the SW) if the reason might have been to try and match the other dark fibers found on JonBenet’s body. I wonder if the covers were tested for bodily fluids.
    • I would have guessed that the two same-colored golf bags were a “his-n-hers” set. It’s just strange that the larger bag with John’s name on it would have only a few woods and the smaller bag has mostly all the irons. Then consider all the other clubs that were scattered all over the basement in different rooms and even some in one of the closets. How long would it take John to get ready to go play golf if he had to first search for and gather all the clubs up before he could even consider going?
    • I think the bags were actually moved from the one location to the other and not the result of tabloid “creative photography”. Notice that what appears to be like a zip-lock bag is turned or flipped between the two pictures as might happen if they were picked up and moved.
    basement doorway golf clubs (crop).jpg

    Golf Clubs (crop).jpg

    • The red stains in the photo are NOT blood or the result of “chemicals used to check for blood” as is stated in the tabloid reproduction of the photo. (That red spot shown on the carpet is about exactly where the paint tote was found, BTW.) They used Luminol to check for blood. Luminol glows blue in reaction to the iron in blood, and the glow only lasts for a short period of time (minutes, or less). It also can only be seen in low light -- low enough that it is difficult to photograph. Here’s an informative online article about its use:
      http://science.howstuffworks.com/luminol.htm/printable
      So my guess about the tabloid photo is that red spots were added for “illustrative purposes”.
    • The golf bag that belonged to Burke (I believe) is shown in the following photo:
    NE Nov 1 2010 crop.jpg

    Notice that it has what looks like some kind of cartoon character’s face on it. Wouldn’t this be pretty typical of something designed to be used by a child? I don’t recognize the character, but here’s another example of a more current character-themed golf bag:
    41k5U1bNEaL._SY355_.jpg

    • One other thing that I have to make note of in the photo showing Burke’s golf bag is all the boxes with tape on them. Look at the size of those pieces of tape as compared to the piece of tape that was used on JonBenet’s mouth.
     
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