James Kolar's new book! It's what we have been waiting for! Daily Beast article!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Moab, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Violent wiping that would have included digital penetration in order to make it hurt. I don't know if this is what happened, we can only guess.
  2. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I think by the phrase, "violent wiping", ST was referring to digital penetration. Just a little "extra" cleaning so that JBR would not want to have any more accidents.
  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    OK, but that would not be normal, and most people would not understand what was being said. "Internal cleansing" or douching, yes. I can't remember, did Thomas talk about douching?

    I know we've had these discussions in the past. I should get my book tomorrow and I can't wait to read about this aspect of the case evidence.

    May JonBenet get justice some day.

    Edited: I thought the shipping was immediate, I see now it's not going to ship until August 8-15!! I am BUMMED!!! I was hurrying to finish my current book so I could start Kolar's book right away! Wah!!!
  4. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I think Thomas was/is influenced by Dr. Richard Krugman's opinion. From Perfect Murder Perfect Town:

    "Dr. Richard Krugman--dean of the CU Health Sciences Center and a nationally known child abuse expert who had consulted with police and the DA since March--[said] physical abuse was another matter. Krugman had occasionally seen injuries to little girls' genitals that were related to toilet training and had nothing to do with sexual abuse....It was possible that the injury to her vagina was a result of punishment."

    I don't know how far you'd have to penetrate to tear a hymen. I don't have an opinion about it.

    But it's clear that Patsy wanted to hide the issue of JonBenet's genitourinary infections. In '97 she talked about JonBenet's health this way:

    TT: Okay. About how often do you think you took JonBenet down to Dr. Beuf’s office?

    PR: Uh, I don’t know. I don’t know exactly, I man she got a cold or sniffle or something and I’d probably run her to the doctor, but…

    TT: Okay. And during that time any major complaints, other that colds and sniffles?

    PR: No, not that I know of, I mean, I just can’t remember, maybe there is something…

    TT: No I’m just like, anything that sticks out of your mind, other than just for the colds.

    PR: They had just the cold, and Burke gets strep a lot; he was there a lot with strep.

    If Patsy had something to say about genitourinary infections, that was the time.
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    What about all the confusion these days with the DNA, Cynic? In this case, would there be clarity with the same family. Would Patsy and Burke's be almost the same?
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    Tricia, Cherokee,Koldkase and Cynic

    Just wanted to thank all of you again for having the courage to speak on the radio and for finding the time trying to solve this frustrating case. I'm sure you are also busy with your family lives too, but I want you all to know you are all very much appreciated!

    I sincerely hope no harm comes to any of you because of your extra involvement in this case.
  7. cynic

    cynic Member

    The latest about Kolar from Today.com

    While popular understanding of the case led the investigation toward looking for an intruder responsible for the child beauty pageant queen's death, Kolar is not so sure. He evaluated lab reports, police reports, witness statements and other information, after being asked to take over the investigation for the DA’s office, which at that time was led by former DA Mary Lacy. Kolar’s conclusions deviate from the direction the Boulder DA’s office had been taking.
    In the book, Kolar discusses the condition of the cobwebs and the glass in the basement window, where police allege an intruder may have entered. Police footage was recently revealed on The Daily Beast. Kolar is also skeptical of the primary DNA evidence that was found on JonBenét’s underwear: “I don’t think we should be letting the course of the investigation be run by one single artifact that may or may not necessarily be involved in the actual crime of the kidnap or murder.”
    “We needed to look back at the family, the people who were in the home that night to determine what motive, what opportunity, what could have caused this situation to occur and eventually be reported to police on the morning of December 26th,” Kolar explained.
    JonBenét’s murder is now a cold case, but Kolar wanted to “try to clear the air” and give people accurate information.
    “It was clear that the prosecution was not going to be able to be pursued and that this extremely widespread murder mystery might just fade into oblivion,” Kolar said.
    “I thought it was necessary to move the public perception to the case closer to the truth,” Kolar told TODAY.com.
    When asked by TODAY.com, the office of current Boulder District Attorney Stan Garnett said he had no comment, since he has not read the book.
    The case was moved over to the Boulder Police Department in 2009. Current police chief Mark Beckner said last week that he’s about 100 pages into reading the book himself and “it seems pretty accurate.” In 1997, Beckner was assigned to take command of the JonBenét Ramsey investigation for the police department.
    But Beckner said Kolar’s theory in the book is nothing new and unless new information becomes available, the case will remain cold and is not actively being investigated.
    The Ramsey family’s attorney, L. Lin Wood, told TODAY.com he has not yet read the book, but that he thinks the book is “nonsense” if it suggests there was no intruder responsible for the murder.
    Wood noted that he believes Kolar self-published the book for reasons of “public notoriety” or “fame.”
    “I am troubled by the idea that a former member of the law enforcement investigation would choose to take information gained from the investigation and publish it for his own personal reasons, at a time when the case has not yet been solved,” said the attorney.
    Moving forward, Wood is hopeful DNA evidence in the FBI’s possession is what will bring the killer to justice, just as DNA exonerated the Ramsey family.

    Kolar hopes “Foreign Faction” could eventually spark something that could solve the case. “It might trigger someone to be willing to come forward and share information about statements or information,” he added. But Kolar admitted he believes a prosecution is not possible at this point.

  8. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Thank you cynic for posting this.

    I am worried that the whirling dervish's words (LWood) were spinning so fast I almost couldn't read them on the page.
  9. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Just to add to my previous reply which I can no longer edit, Schiller in PMPT says this:

    "....Consistent with penetration of a female child of JonBenet's age, her hymen was torn. In such a case, the edges are pulled away and recede quickly, creating a visible difference between a torn and an intact hymen. Photographs of her injured hymen taken at the autopsy indicated to some experts a recent tear, fresh bleeding, and no healing. Logic suggested that JonBenet had been penetrated almost concurrently with her death.

    There remained the question of whether JonBenet had also been penetrated--that is, sexually abused--previously. Dr. David Jones said that the child's vagina showed a history of abuse, since the cellulose dated from an old injury. Dr. Spitz, however, said there was no clear indication of prior penetration and that the cellulose dated from the injury that had taken place around her time of death."

    So Thomas was probably relying on at least two experts: Spitz and Krugman.
  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    Who was this Dr. David Jones? I don't see any mention of him in the passage KK quoted about Dr. Meyers and the experts he called in:

    The bulk of the autopsy had been completed by midafternoon,
    but Dr. Meyer wanted another opinion about the
    injuries that had been inflicted upon the genitalia. Over the course
    of the investigation, a number of forensic pathologists would study
    JonBenét’s injuries and offer their professional insight into what
    had happened to this little girl.

    Dr. Meyer called together the Boulder County Child Fatality
    Advisory Review Team that afternoon, a protocol established by
    the coroner’s office that called for the review of all child fatalities
    that took place in the county. Members who served on the team
    were comprised of people from the Boulder Police Department,
    Boulder County Coroner’s Office, the Boulder County Sheriff’s
    Department, the Boulder District Attorney’s Office, and the
    Boulder County Department of Social Services.

    The team was provided with a briefing on what had taken
    place at the Ramsey home following the report of the kidnapping,
    and Dr. Meyer gave an overview of the autopsy findings. A number
    of things were discussed during the meeting, and the group
    determined that there were a number of questions that needed to
    be researched.

    They were interested in the family history and wanted to know
    if there had been any signs of previous sexual abuse with members
    of the family. There was an interest in determining if there had
    been any recent behavioral changes with the children at their
    schools. It was suggested that the teachers and classmates of
    JonBenét and Burke be interviewed.

    They were interested in determining if Patsy had ever been
    abused as a child and what kind of behavioral changes had taken
    place after her bout with cancer.

    They also wanted to know how the parents were interacting
    with their son, and felt it necessary that an interview be conducted
    with him by investigators.

    The first meeting of the Child Fatality Review Team completed,
    Boulder Police investigators now had another set of investigative
    priorities established for them in the early stages of this investigation.

    Following the meeting, Dr. Meyer returned to the morgue
    with Dr. Andy Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital
    Child Protection Team, so that a second opinion could be
    rendered on the injuries observed to the vaginal area of JonBenét.
    He would observe the same injuries that Dr. Meyer had noted
    during the autopsy protocol and concurred that a foreign object
    had been inserted into the opening of JonBenét’s vaginal orifice
    and was responsible for the acute injury witnessed at the 7:00
    o’clock position.

    Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and
    retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of
    sexual contact prior to the date of her death.

    Dr. Sirontak could not provide an opinion as to how old
    those injuries were or how many times JonBenét may have been
    assaulted and would defer to the expert opinions of other medical

    Maybe he was part of the team, along with Dr. Spitz? Or did they just look at the autopsy photos after the initial exams were over? I would think that Dr. Sirontak, who saw JonBenet's actual injuries in the morgue, would be a better judge of what had happened to her.
  11. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    David Jones was a professor of preventive medicine and biometrics at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center. Both he and Spitz looked at photographs and apparently reached opposite conclusions. (Spitz also looked at slides. I don't know about Jones.)

    Here's Schiller on Sirotnak's conclusions:

    "With the coroner was Dr. Andrew Sirotnak, an assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Colorado's Health Sciences Center. The two men reexamined JonBenet's genitals and confirmed Meyer's earlier findings that there was evidence of vaginal injury. Meyer knew that JonBenet's death could be traced to strangulation and a blow to the head, but the facts surrounding the sexual assault of the child were unclear. In the event of a trial, the physical evidence about that would be open to interpretation."

    From what I gather, Spitz felt that shriveling and retracting of the hymen could happen fast and that other evidence in the vagina pointed to the hymen injury occurring via the broken paintbrush.
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I hate to say this, because I'm sure Dr. Spitz is human like the rest of us and age has taken its toll on him; but after the Casey Anthony trial, I no longer even like to quote anything he's ever said in this case.

    I think Kolar's book is very clear on this. I believe the autopsy is very clear on this, as well. Injuries don't heal instantly, and the white blood cells found in the tissue samples meant the injuries were healing. The condition of the hymen and its rim were clearly the result of repeated contact over time--I think DeeDee has this medical info down cold, as she's posted the medical details for us.

    I recently saw part of an interview with Schiller on one of the news channels, an old one, where the interviewer said to Schiller (approx.), You were the first to believe the Ramseys were innocent. Schiller said, yes, I was. I about fell in the floor.

    It was an old clip, clearly from the "touch" DNA farce played out by Lacy. But I can honestly say up to that point, I had never once heard Schiller say he believed the Ramseys to be innocent. His book certainly didn't read that way.

    I did once hear Schiller say, when asked about it, one thing he'd change in his book is some info he got wrong. Of course, we know lots of info has proven to be wrong through the years, and that's no one's fault as that's how it unfolded as Team Ramsey did a bang up job putting out so much disinformation and plain lies.

    A couple of chapters in Kolar's book that are fascinating include when he realized that Smit had never actually read the police reports. When Kolar gets "off the fence" is when he reads the Ramsey's LE interviews from 1997 and 1998. The man is a thorough and good investigator, and those BS stories and lies didn't fly past him.

    He also went back to the "stun gun" theory and proved it was wrong by having a crime scene specialist work on making an overlay of a Tazer stun gun prongs over the actual injuries of JB, one-to-one, to scale. They did not match, and Kolar points out that Smit's "close" is not good enough for the theory to work.

    Kolar does a timeline of JR's changing story about what he found when he went to the basement that morning. It was a subtle thing, but not really when you get focused on how JR went from not mentioning the "open broken window" or the "out of place suitcase" at all to the officers on the scene that morning, to banging that drum loudly in his 1998 DA interview with Smit. JR also added his "chair in front of the door" story later, never telling LE about it that morning, and the "mysterious van and car", as well. Kolar mentions these were opportunities lost, as investigators, if there had been an intruder, because of possible fingerprints and LE had cars out in the neighborhood that morning and could have looked for those vehicles.

    Ha. I call them JR's imaginary intruders.
  13. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member


    Let me get this right, LOU SMIT never read the Ramsey police reports, yet he had the nerve to push his inane intruder theory (with the pinapple bugaboo) all over the known universe?!!!!

    Well, who needs police reports and investigator transcripts when you can kneel and pray with a suspect, then declare them innocent? Yet Smit's intruder theory is what Boulder DA Mary Lacy based HER whole case on to arrest John Mark Karr, AND her hell-bent desire to exonerate the Ramseys!

    This is scary and outrageous!

    Mary Lacy, the Boulder DA and Lou Smit ally, also publicly admitted she HAD NOT READ the Ramsey case files, which is why she did not know JonBenet was wearing a bracelet the night she was murdered! That fact was not only in the case files, but had also been made public in the autopsy report! Everyone who was a case follower knew that fact ... except for Mary Lacy, who was supposed to be investigating the case. Because John Mark Karr mentioned JonBenet was wearing a bracelet, Lacy thought he knew a detail known only to the murderer. The truth is - Mary Lacy arrested John Mark Karr based on her LACK OF KNOWLEDGE about case evidence!

    So we have Lou Smit, who never read the police reports or investigative transcripts; DA Mary Lacy, who didn't read the case files but relied on Lou Smit for her information about the case; and Michael Tracey, the I-want-to-be-famous acolyte of Smit, who strung along John Mark Karr in a porno conversation for five years and made several "documentaries" touting Ramsey innocence. These three people are responsbile for pushing the intruder theory, yet they refused to read all the case evidence!

    But who needs to read police reports and facts when you can base your entire case theory on a FEELING about whether the Ramseys are innocent or not?

    Certainly not Smit, Lacy and Tracey!!!
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  14. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Well said Cherokee.
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    huh ??? You're kidding Cherokee!?
  16. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I'm not sure if you're arguing that Spitz is old and senile and therefore wrong or that Schiller is wrong about Spitz's opinion.

    I looked at the autopsy again, but I don't know what I'm looking for. I see references to recent injuries and chronic inflammation. I didn't see anything about white blood cells, but I may have missed that. How long does it take white blood cells to get to an injury? I would think it would be fairly fast.

    I don't have an opinion about the sexual abuse. I'm just noting that there was a difference of opinion among the consultants.

    Thomas's theory has the virtue of not multiplying Ramsey loons beyond necessity. Patsy could be responsible for the whole shebang (even sexual abuse) with John joining in the morning after. If JonBenet used to crap in her bed to repel a sexual abuser, would she sleep in Burke's room if he was the one abusing her? (If she did go in there after wetting the bed. I'm not sure where that information comes from.) People who knew JonBenet said she hated for her father to go out of town. That sounds to me like he wasn't the one abusing her.

    I look forward to reading Kolar's book, but I don't have it.
  17. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Just to set the record straight ... Patsy stated she thought Burke hit JonBenet with a golf club in the summer of '93, but Kolar states in his book:

    The incident that involved a blow to the head with a golf club
    that took place in Michigan was claimed to be an “accident” by the
    Ramsey family, but it is interesting to note that this incident took
    place within a day or two of JonBenét’s birthday in August 1994.

    So this incident happened a year later than Patsy let on. Burke would have been 7 1/2 and JonBenet would have been a day or two short of four years old.
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    There is a lot written on the autopsy, some right here, explained better than my inadequate attempts, clearly. Sorry, it's just not my area of expertise, and I only have my opinion, no medical degree.

    I'm only pointing out that there are a lot of inconsistencies and conflicting "expert" arguments in this case, and Dr. Spitz's is one of those. Kolar does use his opinion in the book more than once, so I was only saying maybe by the time Spitz got to the Anthony trial, he simply is suffering from what many people do at that age: he argues a lot, but not that well. Seeing his stubborn determination to stand by his clearly nutty point on the stand at more than one point, Dr. Spitz lost my respect. (Why would a med. examiner saw the skull cap off when the skull is in her hand, open from its orifices and empty of any flesh or brain matter? It was beyond nonsense and clearly Dr. Spitz was completely incapable of reason--his exam destroyed the skull, said the medical examiner who testified for the prosecution, Dr. G, BTW.)

    Schiller, on the other hand, is very much going whichever way the wind blows. He's certainly a good source, but he's also very non-committal, IMO. His documentary he aired the night Patsy was buried was interesting, but clearly he left out important details as he was playing to those sympathetic to Patsy, who had just passed.

    It is a fascinating book Kolar has written. I have to say I so enjoy reading how an ACTUAL professional, competent detective thinks when analyzing evidence. It's been a long time since Thomas. Kolar doesn't look to his "gut" for answers: he goes after the science and reason.
  19. heymom

    heymom Member

    With all due respect, I don't think we can depend upon the outward responses of a sexual abuse victim toward her possible abusers. An abuser will tell his victim all sorts of lies in order to keep abusing, things like, "No one loves you as much as I love you," "All daddies love their little girls this way," etc. Not saying that John Ramsey WAS the abuser, just that abusers lie and therefore victims' behavior may not reflect the truth. To say nothing of the threats that are made, "Say anything and I will say it was YOUR idea," etc.

    JonBenet may have been being abused by just about anyone in her family.
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, well spotted, heymom. So true, so terribly true.

    Victim #2 in the Sandusky/Penn State child abuse scandal has finally surfaced. I feel so sorry for that man. I hope he ends up with enough money to help him recover from this nightmare, but we all know how money can be the worst solution.

    JonBenet was no different than any child given mixed messages: she was tarted up like a Las Vegas showgirl, paraded as a "beauty queen," and sacrificed to the Ramsey alter of money and prestige.

    It grieves me to even know these things.
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