James Kolar's new book! It's what we have been waiting for! Daily Beast article!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Moab, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    The log shows we get A LOT of guests who read here but are not FFJ members, so they are unable to post. Some FFJ members just like to lurk and not enter the conversation. They aren't as extroverted as some of us. :D
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Actually, that's an interesting deduction to reach, about blood on JR's shirt, now that you've explained it.

    If JR's shirt were used to wipe the blood from the child's genital area, why wouldn't it have blood on it?

    However, it is true we've never seen it stated there was any blood on JR's shirt. What we have seen is that in 2000, August, in Atlanta, when interviewing the Ramseys, Boulder LE said the fibers from JR's shirt were consistent with those found in the genital area of the body, which had been wiped down before she was redressed.

    Kolar does point out that Hunter blocked simple subpoenas, including for the Ramsey's clothing worn the night before and the day the body was found, so their clothing "trickled in" a piece or two at a time. Even the Ramseys stated "by the time" they were "asked" for the clothing, they had to look at photos to remember what they'd had on. Kolar said the red sweater Patsy was supposed to have worn to the White's party came in looking brand new, still creased as it would have been straight off the shelf.

    A year later.

    Then there was the diappearing package of size 12-14 Bloomies.

    Now you see 'em: bought in N.Y. City a couple of months before the murder for a niece's Christmas present; one pair found on JB's body, too large for her to ever have actually worn them while still a breathing, moving child....

    Now you don't: the rest of the package never collected by the crime scene processors, though 15 pairs of underwear from JB's drawer were taken, all size 4-6; no sign of the remaining six pair of size 12-14 Bloomies or the package....

    Now you see 'em: Voila! Found in the Ramseys' packed boxes, somewhere in Atlanta, at some point, by someone, possibly a PI looking for the "mysterious" missing Santa Bear, not turned over to LE until Wood "gives" them to Lacy at the end of 2002, her DA Office now fully in charge of the "investigation" into the murder, presumably to be tested and examined carefully to find out if the "intruder" left his fingerprints or DNA on the clear plastic package, or if there might be matching DNA detected on the remaining new pairs still in the package....

    Now you don't: Kolar reacts with surprise when I ask him if that package was tested. In all the "core documents and reports" he examined, he saw no reference to this highly critical package of Bloomies taken into evidence from Wood to Lacy.

    Think about that: the single most important piece of evidence in need of resolving--the "foreign" DNA in the Bloomies--according to Team Ramsey; the long sought after "original" package, said Team Ramsey, which could answer so many questions of evidence, which the Ramseys KNEW from their Atlanta interviews with Boulder LE, when Patsy was questioned EXTENSIVELY on the package and pair of Bloomies found on JB....



    But I digress.

    The point is the Ramsey clothing, from that found on the body to that which the Ramseys wore the night before and day of the 26th, all have so many issues, thanks to Alex Hunter, that without seeing the reports, without seeing in black and white what is actually stated by the labs, etc., it's hard to do anything but bring common sense deductions to speculation, hearsay, and a lot of misdirection from Team Ramsey.

    So it is an interesting point you make, fr brown: we have no idea what clothing ended up with LE and what processing it had been through prior to that.
  3. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Of course, REAL police would have made everyone who was in that house when the crime happened turn over ALL the clothing they were wearing when police arrived (this includes BR) as well as clothing they wore to the White's. This should have been collected at once, even if the distraught family had to change clothes to do it. They should never have been allowed to leave that house wearing the same clothes they wore when the body was found or to the party.
  4. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Well said and absolutely right. Just one of the many mistakes made that day. Another one was not separating John, Patsy and Burke IMMEDIATELY after JonBenet's body was brought up and questioning them.

    Actually, they should have been questioned before that because several of LE at the house already suspected the ransom note was fake, and they needed to lock John, Patsy and Burke into their stories of what happened the night before and then the morning after Patsy "found the ransom note.

    Even if it had been a real kidnapping, the police needed that information to help find JonBenet in case John, Patsy or Burke remembered something that might have given a clue as to who the "kidnappers" were.
  5. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Do we know anything about the clothing that burke was wearing that day? Was it just PJ's? Or what was he wearing to the White's house? Do we know that?
  6. sboyd

    sboyd Member

    By the way the flashlight was found in the kitchen drawer wiped clean and the forensic doctor (Spitz (?)) said the rectangle on her head matched the Maglite exactly.

    He picked up the flashlight and hit her with it and that is all it takes.

    It really all fits now.
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    Actually the flashlight was sitting right out on the kitchen counter. And it is not at all as clear as Dr. Spitz laid it out to be. He demonstrated hitting the foam head with the *wrong* end of the flashlight, the lighter end.

    We're still not sure of the weapon used to bash her head. We do know the murder weapon, which was the neck cord.
  8. Karen

    Karen Member

    The picture of the basement we always see that was in the National Enquirer ...those golf clubs and bag that are easily seen in that picture are Burkes.
    According to Chief Kolar in his book.

    Just sayin'.:yes:
  9. sboyd

    sboyd Member

    Hi there,

    I always thought he said the rectangle on the flashlight fit perfectly into the head wound? Am I wrong?
    icedtea4me likes this.
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    No, you're correct. In fact, in one article it was reported Spitz used a child cadaver to test this skull injury with the Maglite, but I'm not 100% sure that's true. It may be; I just have a very hard time picturing using a child's corpse for anything like testing such a theory, so that one is hard for me to accept.

    Here's the picture that went with an article on Dr. Spitz's work on this case:


    My problem with Dr. Spitz is I found him so ridiculous in the Casey Anthony trial, I can't possibly accept anything the man says anymore. He also made the absurd claim JB's vaginal injuries were not from prior sexual assault, so I think the man wasn't much of an expert after all. That's hard for me to admit, because I have put a lot of stock in some of his other statements about this case for a long time.

    Personally, I think the lip of the narrow end of a bat would have fit into the comminuted area of the skull fracture--there was one found outside on the north side of the house, near the butler's door, remember; also a golf club looks very possible, especially if the end had one of those "cozies" on it, like in that basement hallway photo, which would explain why the scalp wasn't broken, as well.

    I think the Maglite probably was used to get around that night in the dark; the neighbor saw "strange lights" in the home early in the a.m., and we sometimes forget that much of this movement around the house that night was in the dark. But then, maybe it was being used by the children and that's why it was handy to strike JB on the head in a fit of anger?

    Of course, these are just my musings and thoughts.
  11. sboyd

    sboyd Member

    He was downright embarrassing at the Anthony trial.

    Is he trying to drive us all crazy; he says the rectangle fits perfectly and then demonstrates with the END of the flashlight. So does she have a rectangle injury - thanks for your response.
  12. heymom

    heymom Member

    He is also holding onto the foam head to keep it in place, so he can strike it or demonstrate the blow just so. Did he ever actually hit the foam head and show what that looked like? We don't have that photo.

    We talked about this earlier or on another thread. It would take a hell of a smash from that flashlight to do as much damage to a skull as JonBenet had. That, I would have to believe, would have been done by an adult only. I do not believe that the physics would cooperate with a child wielding a flashlight. JonBenet may have gotten a skull fracture, if the blow had been direct and hard, by Burke, but I seriously doubt that he'd have been able to literally crack her skull in half like it was.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here's a description of the parts of a bat:


    The "knob" is the part I have considered as fitting the comminuted fracture of the skull.

    You know what puzzles me about the comminuted fracture vs the long section of fracture going from front to back?

    That you have the comminuted fracture and ALSO the long section of fracture going from front to back.

    I know skull injuries like that are like breaking an egg--no particular rules apply to the direction and shape of the breaks.

    But I have wondered if there might, in fact, have been two blows: one from above and to the side, producing the comminuted fracture; one from either the front or back, producing the lengthwise, long fracture?

    I doubt it simply because I haven't seen this even mentioned in all the years and sources dealing with this injury to the skull.

    But it is a very strange injury with two distinct components--the long fracture and the comminuted fracturing.

    Oh well. Another thing we'll probably never know the truth about.
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    KK, the only problem is that I really do not think that the small end of a baseball bat has enough weight to crack a skull like that. All the weight is at the other end, rather like Spitz's photo where he is holding the light end of the flashlight up to the foam head. The heaviest part would be at the other end, where more of the battery weight is. It would be interesting to try and really crack something in half with the small end of a baseball bat.

    Was the rectangular piece of JonBenet's skull found depressed into her brain?

    I believe it was one VERY hard blow. The cracking is from the force of that flow. And it must have been a hell of a strike, to do that.
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I wish some of our old members were posting with us now, as we had some nurses--in fact, one was an ER nurse, or maybe a surgical nurse, who had lots of experience with head injuries like this one? She could tell us much more about it, and has, actually, but I can't remember her hat. :shamed:

    I have done some research on skull injuries/head injuries in children and a child JB's age has a softer skull bone, which makes injuries to them more severe.

    I personally think Burke was capable of causing the head injury. The velocity of a long weapon in a full swing creates a lot more energy released upon impact. Think about how even t-ball players, less than six years old, have to wear helmets, with their smaller bats and much less strength.

    And wouldn't a golf club be much more dangerous, as far as potential for damage to a skull?

    Of course, I'm no expert. So I could be wrong about any or all of it.
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, it was comminuted in the rectangular area.

    Here is the autopsy. Go to page 7 and under "skull and brain" you'll see the description: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/library/autopsy.pdf
  17. otg

    otg Member

    Since I haven't spent a lot of time on this forum, I'm not sure if it is generally accepted that Dr. Meyer's description of the fracture when he first reflected the scalp is correct or not. But the comminuted fracture is not rectangular. Except for some smaller chips on the perimeter of the fracture (some of which I think I can explain), it is almost a perfect oval. The maglight will not fit perfectly in the fracture as Dr. Spitz claimed and as he indicated in the picture that was published.

    (Disregard the straight lines -- I was trying to figure where the sagittal suture would be when I did this.)

    Also, the comminuted fracture was much further back than what most people think because of how it was photographed above.
  18. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    SBoyd, here is a post from another thread showing JonBenet's head injury compared to the end of a golf club. There is some excellent discussion of this posssibility on the thread entitled "Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video."

  19. sboyd

    sboyd Member

    I think a boy of 9 could do it. Just my feeling on it. My nephew hit my son with a steel bar (God knows why he had that) - nephew was five and my son was 7 and the blood flowed. This was a five year old. I asked my son, who is now 30, and runs Jiu Jitsu if he thought it was possible - and he is no expert, but he said absolutely could do fatal damage with a bat or a flashlight. Just putting all his anger into one thrust - remember how tiny JonBenet was - just saw a four year old in my office and that is tiny. Serious damage would be done using a bat or a flashlight and if you hit her in the right place, it could happen - an 8 1/2 inch crack. There is no way that Patsy and John did NOT feel that opening. Must have been terrifying -
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    OTG, I wholeheartedly agree with you! I very much disagree with Spitz about the lantern end of the Maglite fitting the fracture. The fracture is more ovoid than rectangular.

    Furthermore, I believe if the lantern end with the light bulb and glass shield had been used, there would have been damage to that part of the flashlight. It would have at least broken the bulb and probably cracked the glass.

    As I said on another thread, JonBenet would have had to been struck sideways on the top back of her head with the flashlight as Spitz shows it, and that is a very awkward position for a blow. It seems more realistic that the head blow came from behind. In addition, a hit from the light end of the flashlight (the light bulb and glass weight a lot less than the end with the batteries) would have dealt a glancing blow that would maybe cause a bump and a bruise, but not a fatal fracture in the skull.
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