Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Moab, Jul 18, 2012.
SBoyd, JonBenet was 6 1/2 years old when she was killed.
More than likely, yes. When we see the picture of the skull above, everything has been removed. Too bad we don't have a picture of the comminuted fragments -- it might tell us more about the shape of what caused the injury.
Below is a picture where the adult victim's skull was cleaned and reconstructed so you can see how it looked. If I'm not mistaken, this one was caused by a hammer blow:
You are all so helpful - THANKS SO MUCH.:toast:
Oh, thought she was five - just looked at the pictures - gruesome, but there is a curve to the initial hit which does resemble that of a golf club. But I always thought golf clubs were really heavy. Then again he hit her with a golf club when she was two - I believe.
That incident was also discussed recently. JonBenet was a few days short of her 4th birthday in August 1994 when Burke hit her with a golf club in while the Ramseys were in Charlevoix. He was 7 1/2 years old.
I don't think they could have known, since there wasn't any bleeding externally. If they felt her head with their fingers they would have felt the hole, if they knew where she was struck. Was there swelling on the surface of her head? I would think there would be, yes.
Personally, I think they may have also heard the initial blow, depending on where it was struck. If in the basement, maybe it would have been muffled. But to crack someone's skull like that, had to have made a sound.
The picture of the hammer blow is quite informative too. So that intense and focused strike did NOT remove the bone completely, but JonBenet's strike did...Or was the bone still attached but then Meyers removed it?
I found something strange in Mr. Kolars book on page 123. There he is making a summary of the Ramsey interview from 1997. It is about how John found JBs body:
".... some pieces of black duct tape were found on her legs.."
Could this be just a typing error? There is no other reference about that in His book.
There are four major types of skull fractures:
Linear fractures which are the most common and usually require no medical intervention for the fracture itself.
Depressed fractures which are usually comminuted with broken portions of bone displaced inward and may require surgical intervention if there is underlying tissue damage.
Diastatic fractures in which the sutures of the skull widen usually affects children under three.
Basilar fractures which occur in the bones at the base of the skull.
A depressed skull fracture is a type of fracture usually resulting from blunt force trauma, such as getting struck with a hammer, baseball bat, fireplace poker, or maybe even a golf putter. These types of fractures, which occur in 11% of severe head injuries, are comminuted fractures in which broken bones are displaced inward. Depressed skull fractures carry a high risk of increased pressure on the brain, or a hemorrhage to the brain, crushing the delicate tissue.
Diastatic fractures occur along the suture lines and usually affect newborns and infants in whom suture fusion has not yet happened. In this type of fracture, the normal suture lines are widened.
Diastatic fractures also occur when the fracture line transverses one or more sutures of the skull causing a widening of the suture. While this type of fracture is usually seen in infants and young children as the sutures are not yet fused it can also occur in adults. When a diastatic fracture occurs in adults it usually affects the lambdoidal suture as this suture does not fully fuse in adults until about the age of 60.
Diastatic fractures can occur with different types of fractures and it is also possible for diastasis of the cranial sutures to occur without a concomitant fracture.
We had a discussion about this when Tricia had Kolar on her radio program. Aparently, it IS a transcription error from the original interview. I believe it was decided the word should have been "lips" instead of "legs."
Oh my gosh, Cherokee! This image of the skull, that you provided with the golf clubs! I've never seen this particular view of JBR's skull. I really believe that the perp could've walked up behind and struck JBR from behind, most likely with a golf club, while she was sitting and completely unaware.
I always thought the depression was more on the side but it looks as if it was more on the top of the skull however a little to the right. Someone swinging a golf club from behind and above would have depressed the skull and split the skull toward the front since the energy would have been down and to the front....now I've really got some thinking to do and some experimenting to do with a cantalopue..
Did Burke get those clubs for Christmas? From the time I first read ST's book, I wondered if there was some Christmas gift that resulted in the injury....hmmmm
Here's a scenario. Let's say BR and JBR got into a pretty bad scrape where, possibly BR even jabbed his sister with the track. Maybe he even grabbed her by the shirt collar and slung her. It gets broken up and maybe BR gets the short end of the stick, really gets chewed out by his mother. The confrontation ends but BR is still fuming...maybe it's been building up inside for a while (think feces smeared candy) and he thinks about it for a while...maybe his sister even shouts out some smart remark. BR picks up an golf iron and comes up behind her and nails her.'
Of course, it could be a scenario where she's running from him....
Sounds logical. Thank you for that explanation.
Well we know JB did not arrive at home zonked, but that she was awake and ate some pineapple. And we know now it was Burke who went down and peeled back the paper on some of his birthday presents hidden in the wine cellar. I wonder if JB didn't follow him down there or at least at some time that night catch him peeking into those presents and did the old "I'm gonna tell!" thing and perhaps Burke grabbed her collar and twisted it and it all started from there? Maybe he hit her with the golf club, left her down there crumpled up on the basement floor, Patsy went to put her to bed, couldn't find her, looked in the basement and found her and maybe at that time Burke confessed to what he did?
Or maybe Burke got scared after he saw what he did and went and got Patsy? Maybe John was already in bed and Patsy and Burke did the staging? (Fingerprints on nightgown.) Or maybe John figured it out when he found JB at 11:00AM or maybe Patsy woke him and told him what had happened after they were through with the staging and Burke had been told to go to bed? Or Patsy woke him when she found Jonbenet in the basement?
If Burke did it and the last place he saw JB was in the basement after he hit her he might wonder the next morning "What did you find?" (911 call) ??????????????? Maybe one of those scenarios?
The thing about the way Burke said What did you find? tells me there was some conversation or questions asked by Burke before that one. With the emphasis on the word "did" it seems like he had asked if they found something (else) and they said no or whatever then he said "Well what did you find?"
Don't flay me alive for supposing John Ramsey was in bed when it happened. I have NO idea where he fits in to this other than the cover-up after the fact.
I'm almost done with the book and I noticed Chief Kolar said nothing about there being any dolls in the basement.
Any of your scenarios are possible, Karen. As for Burke's question, he may have been referring to the ransom note, which was probably written after Patsy (and John perhaps) had sent him to bed (since he needed to be detached from the action in the house after JonBenet was struck). He also asked "What do you want me to do?" and that suggests to me that he knew there was some form of deception or play-acting to be done. Why would John respond to Burke angrily, "We're not talking to you!" if Burke were completely innocent? And of course, were Burke completely innocent, why would it matter if he had been up during the phone call to 911? Were they afraid Burke would say that his mom wasn't really afraid because she knew JonBenet hadn't been kidnapped?
Another oddity that always hangs me up is that evidently none of the people in the house had been crying during the night....It would have been very obvious to anyone who saw me after one of my children had died, accidentally or whatever, that I had been crying. Had either of my sons struck the other in a moment of anger, that son would have been crying, and it would be obvious. That's one reason I think John was involved from the first. He probably would have told Patsy to shut up, and stop crying, that they had to think and think clearly, there were phone calls to be made, etc.
Someone posted yesterday re Burke's strange response to "inappropriate" touching. Does anyone know about this question and answer. I never heard anything about it - thanks so much.
It seems from this post you are working in the medical field otg? A great advantage!
No, Elle, I didn't mean to try and give that impression. I absolutely have no medical background (unless I can count a Boy Scout Merit Badge in first aid -- but that was a lo-o-o-o-o-ng time ago). I’m just trying to understand the mechanics of what happened to JonBenet’s skull. I have been looking at the structure of the skull and reading about different types of injuries for some time, and I’m simply sharing what I’ve found with you all here. I’m hoping we might be able to figure out what she was hit with, because I think Dr. Spitz is full of... (well, rhymes with his last name). I believe some things that have been considered as the possible weapon can be eliminated if we understand how the skull is constructed and how it reacts when it is hit.
Maybe this thread isn’t the best place for it, but I kind of got carried away reacting to that goofy picture of Dr. Spitz with a maglight.
Good thoughts. I was always a little stumped about the golf club scenario since I had the impression the skull depression was more on the side of the skull. I always wondered how someone would have swung the golf club from the side in some of those narrow corridors. Now I realize it came from the top and this is much more feasible....
Oh, we don't flay around here.
How about a walk down the plank? irate:
I'm pretty convinced after reading Kolar's book that John was in on this before the 911 call was made.
One important reason is that John rushed Burke out the door past the BPD and into the car of Fleet White, pretty much doing an offensive block so Burke could not be asked questions by LE.
Why would he do that if he truly thought JB was kidnapped?
Also, why would he let Patsy call over all those people if he actually read the ransom note and believed it? John had been in the service; he traveled internationally with his company--a subsidiary of international defense contractor, Lockheed Martin. He didn't just fall off the turnip truck in Boulder in 1920. It was 1996. He was rich. He could call more than one lawyer without any help from the BPD. So he hosts a kidnap party in this home?
And why wouldn't he have awakened Burke himself to ask questions? Or searched the house himself first thing? Or been frightened for his, Patsy's, and Burke's safety immediately? How could he know those kidnappers weren't still in the house?
I'm sorry. John Ramsey knew exactly what had happened, I believe.
So...ready for a swim? irate:
Oh, the dolls: yeah, there are still lots of questions we have. sigh
I play through all the different scenarios in my mind. Obviously John was either informed by Patsy/Burke about what happened or was there to see for himself. That's my problem/question. When did JR spring into action?
Separate names with a comma.