JB's Red Turtle Neck

Am I wrong or does Steve Thomas believe that Jon Benet was wearing a red turtleneck to bed the night of her murder. I am reading his book and PF/PT and I cannot find anything to straighten this out for me. So if someone could help me with this. Because it is drivin me.....

I was under the impression that Steve believes JB had worn a red turtleneck to bed and Patsy in her rage later in the night, had pulled it off and left it in the bathroom where it was found rolled in a ball; but I don't see this as being true. Why would they (Patsy and John) lie about something like that when it can so easily be proven by asking the Whites. By the way I do not see anything referencing a conversation of what JB was wearing that evening with any of their friends.

Help! Thanks very much, Solace

 

Excellent questions and observations, Solace. And welcome to the forum.

It's been many years since I read Thomas' book, but yes, he does state toward the end that the red turtleneck might have been part of the initial abuse, something about Patsy grabbing the shirt by the collar while dragging JonBenet to her room, perhaps?

Some posters believe this might be what happened. The red turtleneck found in the bathroom, however, is still somewhat of a mystery as Thomas says Patsy first said JB had that shirt on when she went to bed, then later changed her story. I think. Gosh, it has been a long time.

Yeah, there are pictures from the Whites' party that night, but we don't know anyone who has ever seen them on the forums. I think Thomas held that info close to the vest, as well. Didn't he mention they used those to determine what Patsy had been wearing at the party the night before?

But good question about what JonBenet had on at the party. I'm assuming she had on what Patsy and John said she did, because they knew by the time they gave LE interviews in April pretty much everything LE knew, so you're right, no reason to lie about that. Neither the Whites nor anyone at their home that night has ever publicly spoken about it, so what you have seen is what we have seen: Thomas' book, PMPT, and the Rams' various accounts in their many media interviews, LE interviews, and book.

We do know JonBenet was found murdered in the white long sleeve shirt, as you know. I don't know if LE ever found the black velvet pants JonBenet was supposed to have worn to the party, either. There was mention of a pair of pants with underwear still in them on the floor in a picture shown to Patsy in her '98 DA interview, but if that were the black velvet ones, then the panties still in them would bring up the question of WHO put the much too large Wednesday panties on JonBenet that night. That's always been a huge question, and Patsy has been no help in clearing it up through three LE interview sessions from April '97, June '98, and August 2000.

This is the way this case is. The more questions you ask, the more questions you have. The parents won't and/or can't answer them, so unless LE has figured it out with the evidence we have never seen, no one ever will. If LE has figured it out, nobody has been indicted, so it's either useless info or the Da doesn't care to indict the killer.

 

Yes, KK, Steve Thomas "JonBenét" Page 40 ...Steve talks about a balled-up red turtleneck sweater being found on the bathroom counter.

It is also discussed in the Police Files - page 47 - 52.

 

RedTurtleneck

Koldkase and Elle,

I am not navigating very well here so I hope this is readable.

Thank you so much for your welcome and your replies. The thing about the red turtleneck that bothers me is that Steve does not explain it in detail, such as who did Patsy originally talk to about the shirt. He only says that Patsy lies about it but doesn't expound on who she lies to, because from what I have read (depositions, etc.) she sticks to the white shirt on JB with a star or something on the front. And so does John.

I was under the impression that Patsy became enraged and twisted the turtleneck and pulled JB out of the bed and in so doing left a bruise on the front of her neck. I also agree with Thomas' theory that this accident happened in the bathroom. The only thing I can see is she is pulling it off her and in so doing JB loses footing from the force of Patsy and hits her head against the bathtub.

Another thing, I am reading 1997 depos and Patsy says in answer to S. Thomas's questioning - "I didn't know that the note came from a pad in my house". John is interviewed the next day and he goes on to say "and there was a practice note and all that".

My point is John knows about the practice note - so he has spoken to someone about it - HIS LAWYERS - and he never speaks to Patsy about this? Patsy either doesn't recall or she lies. The two of them continue to be adamant about Burke not being up. Another lie. These are not important lies, so why they are clinging to them, I don't know. The only conclusion I can come to is that they are guilty and they are lying about things that someone would not normally lie about. I know this is not a normal situation. But there lying is just giving me more fuel to believe that they had a hand in JB's murder. I have digressed and I apologize. I have two more books at home waiting for me. I just found the 1997 depos and they are good.

I don't know what it is about this case; it is just the fact that how could she be positive that JB was dead. I never would have been. I can't even find my own pulse, no less someone else's. I am serious. Patsy apparently knew it was a serious injury and did not want to do any explaining at all. But how could she know it was fatal. She couldn't have.

I'm done for now. If anyone has anymore info on the red turtleneck, I would love to hear and thanks again to both of you for replies.

 

Welcome to the forum sboyd.

Also: On the subject of Patsy taking a pulse and all that, if memory serves me correctly, she was already inconsolable while still sitting in the parlor or sunroom or wherever after hearing that John "found her". She had no idea at that point whether JB was alive, unconscious, or anything else.

She was screaming before she even SAW JonBenet, before she knew anything at all (supposedly). Very telling

As far as reading all the materials, do not forget (for those who like to include the possibility of Burke in this scenario somehow) that the 1997 interviews sold to the NE have been edited. There is no material pertaining to Burke in there, which has always taken some of the wind out of my sails reading it, wondering just what else was "removed" from the interviews (assuming these are the interviews you refer to)

According to the person who sold the tapes, the "omissions" were deemed irrelevant (cough, cough).

I always believe the omissions can be more important than what is actually there.

 

I have two thoughts regarding what Patsy said about JonBenet wearing the red turtleneck to bed. The first one is that she wanted to create the illusion, perhaps primarily for herself, that everything was all hunky-dory between her and JonBenet on the 25th and there was no tiff about what JonBenet would be wearing to the Whites' party. The second one is based on how the question may have been worded (i.e. What did she wear to bed?) because maybe the "she" Patsy responded with is actually herself in the third person.

-Tea

 

Hope you will enjoy being here with us Solace, you will meet a lot of nice posters.

Patsy Ramsey may have given this information about the red turtleneck to the first officer on the Scene. Officer French, or the next one to call Officer Reichenbach, or Detective Linda Arndt, who was there for most of the time, more than any other officer.

Steve Thomas Page 25 of his paperback "JonBenét."

Officers reconstructed some of the timeline of the previous night from the parents recollections. John Ramsey said the family had returned home about ten o'clock, and he read to both children before they went to sleep. He confirmed to Arndt that he had read to JonBenét after tucking her in. He would later deny those statements as well.

Patsy said that JonBenét went to sleep wearing long white underwear and a red turtleneck top.

So, this was part of the information taken from Patsy Ramsey when these officers were there after the 911 call. You have to remembeer, Solace, that all of these police reports were handed over to the Ramseys to read before they faced the police again. District Attorney, Alex Hunter condoned this.

The Ramseys could rehearse what they were going to say the next time around, to avoid hearing the clang of a jail cell. Steve Thomas said it was as if they were play acting.

It was ludicrous. I have never heard of suspects being given this kind of treatment before.

 

Hi Solace (I suppose you're the poster from A&E), so great to see you here!
The posters at FFJ are not only nice, but have such an awesome knowledge of the case that many times I find myself reading here with my mouth open.
Right now I'm halfway through reading poster Cherokee's fantastic and incredibly thorough analysis of the ransom note. Wow!

 

Thank you all for your replies. Hi Rash, yes I am Solace. I can never seem to get the signing in right the first time and end up using different names. Thank you Elle for the turtleneck answer.

I am reading Dr. Hodges book on the case. If you believe Patsy did it, and I do, the book is mezmerizing. He out and out says it was a rage by Patsy finding John with JB. I always had trouble believing that John was involved with JB, but before I even started reading this book, after reading the forensics again and again, I am more and more inclined to believe that to inflict this kind of injury to JB's skull, it had to be more than an accident as she was pulling off her shirt in the bathroom and she fell against the bathtub. My son disagrees. He thinks it is more than possible to inflict that kind of injury on a 45 pound child by manhandling her and accidently pushing her harder than she realized.

But more interesting than that is the response given by Patsy to Tom Haney (sp?) about the heart in JB's hand. She absolutely admits "seeing" it the morning of the 26th. She admits it twice and is very emphatic. He says "you saw it"? And she replies "yes" at least twice. BUT, the next day, she changes and says I may have just seen it in my mind after reading the autopsy reports. When it is convenient for her answer, she says she read the reports; whereas, if not, she says they were too hard to read.

Another interesting, very interesting response by Patsy is when asked how her days are now (by Tom Haney). She replies (and I am paraphrasing here but I will find the exact quote, because I read it many times) I use to be afraid to die before this happened, but now I am not. But because JB HAD to go there and I know will see her when I go and if not I will be here with Berke, but I am not afraid to die anymore.

Why does she say JB "had" to go. JB didn't have to go anywhere, it was forced upon her by someone. I would have said "now that JB is gone" I know I will see her some day. I never would have said JB had to go. She tells me a lot in that statement.

I guess everyone expects sexual child abusers to look like monsters and often times they do not. I am leaning more and more to the idea that John missed Beth incredibly and sought comfort with JB. I don't think this is far fetched at all. Shocking but not far fetched. He was inconsolable when she died.

 

I am back at the red shirt again. Does anyone know, has anyone read that the police followed up and asked the white's what JB was wearing at their house Christmas evening. I hope they asked that question. I cannot believe that Steve Thomas would not have. Thanks for any answers.

 

JonBenet was wearing the same shirt she was found dead in the following day (a white Gap shirt with white star on the front of it).

Steve Thomas's theory also includes the red turtleneck. Thomas believed that JB had wet the bed that night and that Patsy lost her temper while changing JB. This can be found on page 319 of his book. If I remember correctly it goes on for a page or so after that as well.

 

In Death of Innocence by John and Patsy ramsey- page 7 HB

Paraphrased: On Christmas day, late afternoon, John Ramsey returns from the Jefferson Airport County airport, where he had unloaded some Christmas gifts which were going to Michigan, JonBenét and Burke were playing with their friends outside. Patsy then called them in to get ready for the White's party.

Patsy wanted JonBenét to wear a red turtleneck top with her black velvet pants, so that mother and daughter would be dressed alike. JonBenét rebelled and wanted to wear an outfit she had chosen.

John doesn't go into great detail here other than to say that JonBenét put on her outfit with black boots that zipped up, with animal print trimmed along the top.

Police Files - page 47

Detective Tom Trujillo interviews Patsy.


TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color of top was she wearing actually to the White's house like?

PR: Well, she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little riff over that 'cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this read sweater with her black velvet pants and it was Christmas and all that.

And she didn't want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this ...

TT:Kind of a crew neck?

PR: ... Crew neck, and it had a little, little rhinestones, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.

TT: Okay

PR: So I just left that on her


Steve Thomas Page 25 of his paperback "JonBenét."

Officers reconstructed some of the timeline of the previous night from the parents recollections. John Ramsey said the family had returned home about ten o'clock, and he read to both children before they went to sleep. He confirmed to Arndt that he had read to JonBenét after tucking her in. He would later deny those statements as well.

Patsy said that JonBenét went to sleep wearing long white underwear and a red turtleneck top.

 

It seems to me somehow that those rhinstones could very well have caused the "stun gun" marks on her body.Maybe if from one point tip of the star to the second point tip could be measured we could know if it is an equal distance as the marks. If the shirt was off and laying somehwre and she landed on it maybe or if it was swung at her and the impact of the rhinestones hit her it could have left a mark. I've never believed the "bedtime story" John and Patsy have offered up. I have never thought JB ever made it to bed that night at all. I tend to think she wore those large underwear and those long johns under her black velvet pants to the Whites Christmas party. So the only thing that came off was the black pants and boots. Another thing about her outfit. Since when is Patsy going to let beauty queen daughter wear black pants, cream colored sweater , black boots with fake animal fur, and BLUE HAIRTIES?They do not match anything JB was wearing, and I'm sure that JB had some Christmas hairties laying around to wear, but these blue ones just don't fit. I think they are an important clue. Where do these blue hairties fit in with this outfit?

 

Bleeding JB's Brain

Thank you for all your replies. This is on a different subject. I read "Who Killed JonBenet" this weekend, and Wendt (sp?) says there was harly enough blood in the brain for JB to have been hit before the strangulation. He says about 2 or 3 teaspoons (might be tblespoons) but no more. His reasoning is that she was near death from the strangulation (sex game with John) and that her heart had almost stopped pumping. I get a completely different view from Steve Thomas who said there was massive hemorraging but he does not back it up. The autopsy report says "extensive hemorraging (sp?)".

Does anyone have any theories about this. Been thinking about it, and if Wendt is right, then there is a lot more to this crime than just an accident, but I have a very hard time believing that John was strangling his daughter in a sex game. He is going to jeopardize his entire life by leaving bruises on her neck? This is not to say that I do not believe that he wasn't molesting her. She had been molested (according to Wendt and others) a few days prior to her death and he explains this so anyone can understand it. I have a feeling that Patsy was wondering about this and may have caught him Christmas night. It is just so much easier (sounds absurd) to believe that Patsy lost her temper and handled JB roughly in the bathroom because she wet the bed and in so doing JB lost her footing and hit her head on the bathtub.

I REALLY NEED TO HEAR ALL YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS ONE. This is a great board for this discussion because some of the things in this case can drive you crazy when you one needs backup and I am getting lots from all of you. Thanks so much. Solace

 

I agree with Cyril Wecht on that one. However, if the garroting did come first it's hard to seeing any parent doing this... First of all, if Patsy or John had done this why would the other stand by them.... Garroting your child isn't exactly an accident. Besides John had no history of this behavior and has none of the characteristics of a sexual predator. People don't just wake up one night and decide they are going to be sexual predators. And I'm sorry but Patsy killing her in a sex game is just outrageous. A mother who doesn't even spank her six-year old isn't going to suddenly snap and garrote her.

I realize that very few of you will probably agree with me. As Henry Lee stated when he was asked to consult the case this case will come down to a battle between experts. If the Ramseys did kill her they will never see the inside of a court room. There is to much reasonable doubt, not to mention that the crime scene was completely destroyed. Prosecuting them would be a waste of time and money, which is why they have not prosecuted them and probably never will.

 

Thanks for your reply Seeking Justice.

I don't think there was a sex scene going on. I just don't agree with that. However, approximately half of child abuse cases (in whatever form) reported do not have a history of abuse. So there is no telling what a parent can do when they just snap and become angry. This is far different than planning out a sexual game and doing it. What I am interested in finding out (the author of the analysis of the ransome note and another book) also agrees that the strangling came last to stage. But Dr. Hodges does not go into any depth about the hemorrhaging and his theories are believable but I believe he will lose people with this theory of his just because he attributes every single action of Patsy's to pretty much her wanting JB dead (but that is another topic).

I think there was sexual abuse going on and I did not before, now I do after reading Wecht's analysis. He is very clear that abuse happened a few days prior. This leads me to believe that Patsy was aware of something, possibly. Or maybe, if I can get a better explanation of the hemorrhaging, I will go back to Steven Thomas' theory that it was in rage. Lets not forget she had been drinking, not that much, but a few glasses and I am positive she was taking tranquilizors (she had been from her treatments and she is not going to stop now because she was most likely addicted to them) and she openly admits in the transcripts that she did not want to go the next morning and she was just about to turn 40 and had just recouped from cancer. These are ENORMOUS "stressers". She is involved. I just want to try to get some answers as to how. This hemorrhaging factor has just thrown everything for a loop now and I am back at square one.

 

Elle: So what do you think? Did he read to her and get caught by Patsy?

 

In Thomas's book he states that the blow to head came first. But I promise you, you will find just as many books that say that the garroting came first. Like I said in my earlier post, this case will turn into a battle of experts. The prosecution finds two, the defense will find three. I have read Wecht's book and agree with most of what he has to say. Not sure about the sex thing... But his overall view of the cause of death I agree with. John Douglas' book (The Cases That Haunt Us) also discusses the head injury, it can be found on pages 430-431. I have read some of Hodges book (Who Will Speak for JonBenet?), but I haven't finished it yet. So far I don't really agree with him, but I am open to all sides of the investigation.

 

There's a lot of sense to what you're saying here, Karen. In spite of the fact that Patsy Ramsey gave in to JonBenét wearing the Gap outfit, white top with whatever pants that went with this Gap outfit, she may have had some control over her hair (?). Unless there was another confrontation over this choice (?). Who knows (?), maybe Patsy Ramsey was frazzled with JonBenét's behaviour when they all returned home, and with all the other loose ends Patsy had to tie, she may well have just lost it with JonBenét; went into a rage and the end result was the accidental death of JonBenét (?).

 

You know, SB, I have always found it very difficult to believe that John Ramsey was involved with his 6 year old daughter in a sexual manner; especially when he had a mistress, Jodie Roberts, for two years when he was married to Lucinda, his first wife. I just felt he was the type of man who could have had a few girlfriends on the side, due to being a CEO,which many women find very attractive. No bad reports came from his other daughter, Melinda, so why would he need to go to a little six year old for sexual gratification, when he could have had another woman?

For the life of me, I still cannot see a man of this calibre stooping so low to molest his youngest daughter. I'm still having trouble with this after all these years, and yet, why the vicious attack on JonBenét's vagina to cover up? It sure does put me in a spin. Could it have been John Andrew or Burke as a few of my poster friends here think, and Patsy Ramsey is protecting them (?)

Oh how I wish someone, anyone, could find something we have all missed. It's good to see all of you trying so hard.

How could John Ramsey have read to her, when she was supposed to have been carried upstairs asleep, but Burke said she walked in front of him and up the stairs to the police (?).