John Ramsey's New Book - The Other Side of Suffering

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Tricia, Jan 18, 2012.

  1. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I didn't say that Psalm 35 was Patsy's favorite or even a favorite. It's a great prayer for someone in fear for her life. The perpetrator, I think everybody can agree, was successful in making the way of her pursuers dark and slippery.

    Patsy apparently liked intricate word play. She was fond of signing letters with initials such as "PPRMFA" (or something like that. I can't remember what her degree was). Obviously that wouldn't work too well here.

    Maybe Patsy noticed that "CTBS" reversed can stand for the first letters of "saved by the cross" and decided to reverse them.

    Steve Thomas says that the Bible was open to Psalm 35

    It was interesting to me to find out that the initial letters of each line of Psalm 34 in order were of significance in Hebrew and that this point was hammered home in Patsy's version of the Bible. I hadn't realized before what inspired her to do the same thing with Psalm 35. Personally, I hate inventing user names and use a raft of books when I pick one. It wouldn't have occurred to me to do that.

    She probably did want something that sounded like a foreign faction.

    I don't know who was sitting at the desk reading the Bible. It could have been an intruder.

    But it strikes me that the Bible was left open when it was usually closed and that this Bible is described as being in John's study (Thomas) or on John's desk (Linda Wilcox). Perhaps this was one of those "little clues" that the perpetrator left around.
  2. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    As usual, I'm with Cherokee on this one. The person writing this note was panicked, distraught, terrified. I've always thought STBC, if it indeed means anything at all, means Saved by The Cross. I think that acronym, like the nightgown and blanket, were meant to comfort both JBR and the people involved in the crime.
  3. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member


    Thank you!!! I couldn't figure out how to make my post format correctly.
  4. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    How do we know it was PATSY'S version of the Bible? The book was allegedly on John's desk in John's study. That fact would lend itself to the belief the Bible belonged to John, not Patsy, and that he was the one using it. For someone as religious as Patsy, I'm sure she had her own Bible. In most fundamentalist Christian families, every person has their own copy, including children who are often given a Bible by their parents or by their church upon baptism or graduation.

    Furthermore, you just made my point when you said "the initial letters of each line of Psalm 34 in order were of significance in Hebrew and that this point was hammered home ...."

    In order is the key here, and is what I said earlier. CTBS was not in order with the use of SBTC. The order of the letters is what gave the acrostic meaning. To reverse the order made it mean NOTHING! If Patsy truly was referring to Psalm 35, she would have left CTBS in that order!

    It didn't.

    I love inventing names for things, and so did Patsy. Patsy loved words - she even wrote her own dramatic dialogue on short notice! Patsy was a journalism major and did drama and plays through high school. Words were something Patsy reveled in. She even invented JonBenet's name! She was very creative and many people have said that. Patsy didn't need to thumb through a book to come up with a name or an acronym. Patsy made up acronyms all the time as evidenced by some of her known writings.

    Of course she did! Patsy grew up in the same time frame I did, with the unrest and campus bombings and the SDS - Students for a Democratic Society. There was the major news story of Patsy Hearst and the SLA - Symbionese Liberation Army. We also had the unrest in the Middle East with the PLO - Palestinian Liberation Organization during the late 70s that caused the "energy crisis" and the long lines at the gas stations. If a person wanted to make up a nefarious, shadowy "foreign faction," they would give it acronym initials like the real nefarious, shadowy organizations.

    How do we know it was usually closed? Just because Linda Wilcox saw it closed? Linda also said she thought it was used because there was little dust on it, so it had to have been open some time.
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks for the quote, Fr brown.

    I did some googling and read some of the "prologue" for the Psalms. In hindsight, it actually was a little bit of a blueprint for how the Ramseys viewed their horrific actions before, during, and after that night, IMO.

    David vs Goliath: turns out David lied a lot, was a bit of a hypocrite, and then got himself saved by god in spite of all of it, just because he "glorified God" every chance he got and was therefore forgiven all his little old sins of lies and war.

    According to one analysis I read, David did these "ungodly" things to keep himself from getting caught in various warring situations, not really trusting god to sort it out, doncha' know. Then David wrote the Psalms to explain how others need to act, because now he knows better. Now that he's benefited form his lies and wars, he only needs forgiveness for it.

    And good old god complies; as ever, always striking down and making miserable all the enemies of those who lie and deceive, as long as the sinners righteously bow their heads and ask god for forgiveness...and then go right on lying and benefiting from devastating the lives of others.

    Ah, religion. What wonderful things are done in the name of god and with his sanction. [I'm being ironic here.]

    It's a surefire way to fool the masses, anyway. Step right up and observe how good we Christians are! Molested and murdered child? Not our fault! We're too good. Blame everyone else! Bring the wrath of god down on their heads! Rob them of everything: their reputations; their livelihoods; their properties!

    Dam* them to Hell-fire and brimstone! WE'RE THE SAINTS HERE! Praise God! [And us!]

    Then buy our books/tickets/magazine interviews/TV appearances, and photographs. We've got an endless supply [of lies]!


    The Ramseys and all their relatives who have supported and enabled them are the antithesis of everything they claim to be about: these alleged Christians have no idea what Jesus taught and lived. Instead, they lied, sacrificing JonBenet for their financial and social status, abandoning her when she had no one who ever knew her to speak for her, with precious few in law enforcement willing to stand up for her in the face of the Ramsey's power beat down through lawyers and corruption.

    The Ramseys better just pray there is no god and no Hell, because if there is, they'll surely be in it.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  6. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Don't want to highjack the thread ... but thanks, she won an award for that one!
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So far, Patsy's paintbrush, Patsy's fibers tied into the knot on the ligature, Patsy's DNA on the nightgown, and Patsy lied more than she told the truth when being questioned about this murder.

    She also had extreme trouble "passing" her self-sponsored polygraph...for obvious reasons, IMO--she was lying.

    I'm not giving Patsy a pass. I'm not giving JR or Burke a pass, either.

    So far, the only thing I'm certain of is that the three people in that home that night who lived are all over the crime scene and have a history of abusing or ignoring the abuse of JonBenet.

    And of course, Patsy wrote the note.

    I don't know if the Bible or Psalms played a part that night.

    But we do know that Patsy and, for obvious reasons after the murder, John threw their religious beliefs into this murder like they did with Patsy's cancer survival.

    I question the idea that the $118K ransom had something to so with Psalm 118 or whatever it is Patsy loved so much, but some people think this is proof positive Patsy planned the whole thing.

    So one speculation is as good as another, until somebody confesses, IMO.

    And the chances of that happening are one in 118,000,000. :gottarun:
  8. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I agree, Pearlsim! Those letters could have taken from anywhere in Patsy's brain at the time. She was in shock and panic mode, and she was thinking fast. That's why the ransom note falls apart from the very ordered first page and plural "we" to the disordered singular "I." Patsy wasn't methodically constructing a three-page opus, she was trying to write what she thought sounded like a legitimate ransom note, but ironically, it's wording and extreme length gave away just how fake it was. Patsy's psychological state at the time was influenced by all the adrenaline and cortisol running through her system, and she couldn't shut it down, just like she couldn't seem to end the ransom note. Patsy loved words, and she just kept writing and writing and writing ...

    P.S. You're welcome about the formatting. A bracket had gotten deleted, so all I did was put it back in. :)
  9. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Perhaps the question that should be asked is: How likely is it that Patsy picked SBTC for a reason unrelated to the psalm and the Bible was open by chance to the page containing that sequence of letters at the beginnings of four adjacent lines if that sequence only occurs once?

    From what I can determine, the Bible was in the bedroom on a desk in a study nook. I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter. (It had both their names in gilt on the front, btw.) John probably did read it. Maybe that group of psalms was a favorite of his. Maybe it had been open to that page for a while. Maybe Patsy saw it as a message to her from God so she decided to make use of it.

    I think you are getting obsessed with acrostic. Bible acrostics can just be Hebrew characters in alphabetical order, serving as a memory aid. They don't necessarily spell words (as far as I can tell). And, of course, the Bible was in English and neither SBTC nor CTBS actually spell anything so what difference does it make to put it backwards or forwards?

    I think I've said all I want to say about this. You are obviously very emotional for reasons I am unable to fathom so I'm ending my participation here.
  10. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    She isn't being emotional, she's being logical. Don't be condescending. Cherokee is one of the best posters on these forums.
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    All very true, KK. Unfortunately, it looks as if JonBenet will never have justice on this earth. It saddens me greatly that NO ONE in that little girl's life had the courage to stand up and state the truth. You would think that somewhere along the line, even if it cost them their fortune and their freedom for a time, that SOMEONE would tell the truth. Just think of the terrible burden of knowing, and to bear that until the end of your days, wondering if your God really will forgive you, or if you will go to Hell for hiding what happened. Even someone like Fleet White has sold out JonBenet, the poor little dead girl that everyone loved seeing photos of, but no one stood up for.

    All these years later, John Ramsey could still own up to the whole thing. No charges would be filed against Burke or himself, and Patsy has gone to her reward or punishment already. And yet...JonBenet's body lies rotting in Atlanta, and I'm sure her Daddy and brother don't visit her grave.


    I'm sorry, JonBenet. I never could have done what your family did to you, leave you lying there dead under the Christmas tree, pretending some intruder had killed you, when at least 2 of them knew exactly what had happened. Insinuating that people who cared for you had killed you or had some part in killing you. Warning Boulder and all of America that "a killer is on the loose," when they knew very well there was no such thing involved. I wish I could have access to the case files, I would SCREAM the truth for you, little girl. And tell the lawyers "EFF YOU" and at last you would have your justice.
  12. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I'm being emotional? Where? Give me an example.

    I have responded respectfully and logically to your posts. I have countered your arguments with arguments of my own. Where is the emotion in that?

    Being "emotional" is accusing someone else of something they didn't say (like you inferring I believed Patsy killed JonBenet for no reason when I've never said that). I'm not the one being emotional here, and I resent the implication. I have not attacked you personally or assigned negative personal attributes.

    I don't care if you believe Foster's theory of CTBS/SBTC or not. That is your perogative and you're perfectly welcome to believe whatever you want. What I took issue with was that you stated as a fact it was where Patsy got her idea for SBTC. We don't know that for sure, and the indications are, it is NOT where Patsy got her idea for her "foreign faction" name for several reasons which I have enumerated.

    I am definitely not obsessed with "acrostic." That part of Foster's theory doesn't matter to me one way or another. YOU are the one who brought it up and seemed obsessed with it because you believe Foster's theory. YOU are the one who said it mattered if the acrostic was "in order," not me. I merely took your own argument about how the "order" was "hammered home" in that passage, and I pointed out Patsy didn't keep the "order" of the alleged acrostic inspiration, so what good was it if the "order" YOU mentioned was so important?

    Fr Brown, as I said before, if you want to believe CTBS is SBTC, then that's more than fine. All of my posts on the subject were made with the intention to show that we don't know where Patsy got her SBTC, and that Foster's theory is just that - a theory. It is not a fact that Patsy got SBTC from an upside down CTBS in John's Bible or ANY Bible. I repeat - if Foster's computer had found a TCBS, he would have latched on to that as an explanation because he was looking for the link to be there.

    My point is ... we don't KNOW how Patsy came up with SBTC, but Patsy didn't need a Bible or ANY book to come up with a name. She came up with names and acronyms and creative ideas all the time. We will probably never know how Patsy came up with SBTC, and in the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter, does it?

    My argument wasn't with your belief in Foster's theory but with the stating of Foster's theory as fact when we don't know that it is.

    We don't have an "olive branch" emoticon ... will a rose do? :rose:
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  13. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I'm also not giving Patsy or JR or Burke a pass on ANYTHING, including the staging.

    When I say I don't think Patsy killed JonBenet, especially "for no reason," I meant I don't think she INTENTIONALLY inflicted the head blow that lead to JonBenet's death, and even if Patsy was involved in the ligature strangulation, it wasn't "for no reason." That is what Fr Brown inferred I believed, and it was not true. My statement was in refutation to the accusation because I've NEVER said Patsy "killed JonBenet for no reason." I wanted to set the record straight because I have ALWAYS said through the years that I didn't know who killed JonBenet, but I know Patsy wrote the ransom note. However, I do believe Patsy was involved in the staging of the crime scene, and she obviously wrote the ransom note. Currently, I believe Burke could have caused the head blow to JonBenet, but his parents did the staging and cover up. Whether Patsy or John pulled the ligature cord, I don't know. Patsy could have tied the ligature knot then handed the whole thing to John. We just don't know at this point. We STILL don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    And we never will. :(
  15. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I think we're talking about different things. I looked up Bible codes the other day and that method (or one of them) consists of putting letters in a grid and looking for patterns which aren't apparent to the eye. Foster's point is that SBTC, backwards or forwards, is very striking to the eye in the Ramseys' Bible. I can't search the Ramseys' version at the moment, but my recollection is that the layout of the psalm does highlight rather than obscure the first letters of the first words of the first four lines.

    I'm fairly certain that Foster didn't look for other instances of SBTC in the manner you seem to be suggesting.

    I doubt if Patsy was writing a message to God or to herself. I suspect she was leaving a "detective story" type clue, perhaps to go along with John's bathrobe dropped on the floor nearby.

    Probably John did sit and read that Bible while gazing out at the Flatirons. No doubt Patsy sat there and browsed through it too. She probably also cruised through the ledger John kept in that desk. (My thanks to Kolar who labels this room on the third floor a "study." I can finally make sense of Steve Thomas's comments in JonBenet. It's Thomas, of course, who tells us the Bible was open to Psalms 35 and 36.)

    I'm not suggesting that Patsy constructed an "acrostic taken from English letters that were substituted for the original Hebrew alphabet and words." That would really be ridiculous, huh? I'm suggesting that the commentary discussing Psalm 34 as an acrostic psalm may have, along with the eye-catching formatting of Psalm 35 on the page, given Patsy the idea to construct an acrostic of her own. (By the way, in Bible acrostics the order of the letters is sometimes reversed.)

    Acrostic: A poem or series of lines in which certain letters, usually the first in each line, form a name, motto, or message when read in sequence.
  16. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you for your post, but I was not talking about Bible codes. I am familiar with that subject and the debunking of it by experts.

    My point, which seems to somehow get lost in translation, is that we don't know exactly where Patsy got her S.B.T.C, and to say that is comes from a particular Psalm is merely speculation.

    If you want to believe that is where Patsy got her inspiration for S.B.T.C, that is certainly your perogative, and I would be the first to defend your right to believe it. However, it cannot be said by anyone that Patsy definitely used an acrostic she saw (backwards or forwards) from a Psalm for the name of her fake "foreign faction." Furthermore, it is only Don Foster's opinion that S.B.T.C comes from that Psalm, and it cannot be stated as a 100% fact, and that was the entire reason for my post saying such. I don't have a beef with Don Foster or anyone who agrees with his opinion. It could be that he is right, but we will never know for sure unless Patsy told someone, or left information, about the meaning of S.B.T.C.

    I don't know how else to say what I've already said except to quote from my ransom note analysis that is posted on FFJ's front page:

    The final writing from the author in line 67 is the assumed “name” of the foreign faction” spelled as an acronym using the letters “S. B. T. C.” During the 1960s and 1970s, many “factions” and social protest groups that were highly visible in the news had names that were acronyms of other words. For example, there was SDS – Students for a Democratic Society, SLA – the Symbionese Liberation Army, NAACP – National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, PLO – the Palestine Liberation Organization, LULAC – League of United Latin American Citizens, and IRA – the Irish Republican Army, among many others.

    The ransom note author was obviously aware of these groups and felt the need to “legitimize” their fantasy “foreign faction” with a name that mimicked their acronized names. The letters S, B, T and C may have meant something to the writer (and to John), or they may have been picked at random from the beginning and end of the alphabet. It is interesting to note that the author thought it necessary to place punctuation periods between the letters of their acronym just as they had previously between the letters of “FBI.”

    In the last 20 years or so, periods in acronistic names have been dropped from use and are no longer considered a requirement for correct punctuation. It is obvious the ransom note writer learned their writing skills in a generation that grew up before this change in punctuation. Even the placing of the closing and name under the body of the ransom note reveals a person who was educated before the current “block style” of letter writing was made popular. The ransom note author was definitely not a child or a teenager, but an intelligent adult who had been taught “old school” grammar and style.

    It has been observed by other analysts that Patsy Ramsey liked to invent and “sign off” letters with acronyms. One Christmas note to a friend was signed "P.P.R.B.S.J.," which she said stood for "Patsy Paugh Ramsey, Bachelor of Science in Journalism.” It is interesting to note that Patsy felt the need to place punctuating periods between the letters of her closing acronym just as the ransom note writer did in their closing acronym.
  17. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Yeah, I'm almost positive that Foster didn't kill JonBenet so his opinion would be speculation. His observations aren't speculation, though. I felt I needed to explain the basis for his opinion lest people start thinking that Patsy would need to do something intricate and involved rather than just lay her eyeballs on the page.

    For the record, Foster didn't, as far as I know, use the term acrostic. That's my word, and I used it because it's the accepted term among Bible scholars for a certain kind of psalm construction.
  18. cynic

    cynic Member

    I just ran across this and it left me at a loss for words. One that eventually came to mind was tasteless, and so I thought that posting it here on a thread about something equally tasteless, John’s book, would be appropriate.
    This will actually be a show in a small off-off Broadway theatre (The Kraine Theater, 85 E. 4th Street) in NY

  19. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    Someone bought Jameson's play?!
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    I too, am stunned and at a loss for words, cynic!
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice