BOULDER POLICE INTERVIEW Interviewer: Boulder Police Interviewee: Patsy Ramsey Date of Interview: April 30, 1997 Interviewed At: Boulder District Attorneyâ€™s Office Case: Hasson Ramsey ST: Detective Steve Thomas TT: Detective Tom Trujillo PR: Patsy Ramsey PB: Pat Burke BM: Bryan Morgan PH: Peter Hoffstrom JF: Jon Foster NOTE: This version has been prepared from a transcript provided to Global Reporting & Video, Inc. on October 10, 2002. Numerous inaccuracies in spelling, punctuation and other textual errors have not been corrected. ST: Just sit down. ??: Okay. ST: (Inaudible) so Iâ€™m going to keep half an eye on this as we, as we go this morning and, and Jon certainly let me know as you need to take a break to changes tapes or anything. JF: Alright Steve. ST: For the, simply for the record, uh, let me state today is Wednesday, April 30. 1997. The time is 9:05 a.m. My name is Steve Thomas. Iâ€™m a detective with the Boulder Police Department. Present in the conference room at the Boulder District Attorneyâ€™s office are myself, Detective Thomas Trujillo, Chief Trial Deputy Peter Hoffstrom, Mrs. Patricia Ramsey, Mr. Patrick Burke and Mr. Jon Foster. Just some quick introductory remarks and some housekeeping and weâ€™ll get started here, but Patsy I want to speak specifically to you and tell you that we appreciate you coming to the table today, uh, and your involvement with this and our intention, and I can speak for myself and I think the other persons on this side of the table, is to establish some sort of ongoing dialog. And to that, uh, I think today as an important leap of faith for both sides and uh, I appreciate your comments of wanting to work with us and, and we desire that as well. As you know and as Iâ€™m sure Patâ€™s told you today, weâ€™re going to ask some difficult questions as well as some easy questions and the difficult questions are simply necessary in a case like this and I think you can appreciate that and understand that and weâ€™ll try to get through that as best we can and weâ€™re very sensitive to this Patsy. I want to assure you of that. Uh, I have uh, and you donâ€™t know me personally, but Iâ€™ve gone to bat for Johnâ€™s two oldest kids, uh, John Andrew and Melinda, and despite what anybody thinks about me, I will continue to do whatever is necessary as will Tom and Pete to find the truth in this case and thatâ€™s what weâ€™re all looking for. Uh, I will tell you that we will work this until we bring it to a successful conclusion and we will do that and to do that we desire your cooperation. Um, as necessary today Jon and Pat and Patsy, weâ€™re pretty flexible. If you need to take a break or compose yourself, uh, if itâ€™s lunchtime, whatever you need, weâ€™ll work around those things. I think Tomâ€™s going to start and he probably has uh, uh, maybe several hours of questions for you and I might jump in intermittently, but itâ€™s a two way street and I, Iâ€™ll just turn it over to you Tom. TT: Okay. Letâ€™s just (inaudible) a little bit. Kind of tell me a little bit about yourself, your background, where you were born, kind of the nuts and bolts kinds of stuff. PR: I was born in Parkersburg, West Virginia, November 29, 1956. I attended school there, uh high school. I, I was (noise of someone pouring water, Patsyâ€™s voice is inaudible during that sound) college (inaudible) Charleston, West Virginia and (there is a very loud scraping sound which covers Patsyâ€™s voice) short time (more background noise) and then I moved to Atlanta in the summer of 1979 and was working for McCann Erickson Advertising Agency (inaudible) And in 1980, November, I married my husband, John. TT; Okay. So let me back you up just a bit. What high school did you, Parkersburg, Parkersburg High School right? PR: Parkersburg High School. TT: Okay. What kind of clubs were you in? What kind of activities did you do in high school? PR: I was a cheerleader in the 10th grade. I was on the drill team my senior year. TT: Drill team? PR: Like a, like a dancing, with the band. TT: Okay. Not like a . . .(inaudible) PR: Pom pom kind of thing, you know, yeah, no. TT: Okay. PR: Um, I was in student government there. TT: Did you hold an office those senior years? PR: Uh, I donâ€™t remember. TT: Okay. PR: I was president of the student body when I was in the 9th grade . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .in junior high school. And I was very active in the speech and debate team there and uh, participated regularly in that group. TT: Where did you go to college at? PR: West Virginia University. TT: Okay. And you graduated from there. PR: Yes. TT: What was your degree in? PR: Journalism. TT: Okay. Howâ€™d you do with that? Howâ€™d you do in college with your journalism degree? PR: I graduate Magna Cum Laude. TT: Okay. PR: And uh, my emphasis was in advertising so thatâ€™s what I did for a, some short time after I graduated. TT; Okay. And you were Miss West Virginia, Miss America about what did year did all that happen? PR: 1977. TT: Okay. Thatâ€™s during college. PR: (Inaudible) TT: Okay. Did any scholarships come out of that? PR: Yes. I uh, there was some scholarship for winning Miss West Virginia. I canâ€™t remember exactly how much and then at the Miss America pageant I won a non-finalist talent award and I think it was a $2,000 scholarship for that. TT: Iâ€™ve got to ask which talent. PR: (Laughter) â€œThe Kiss of Deathâ€ dramatic dialog. ??: (Laugher) ST: (Inaudible) Miss Jean Brody. PR: Your right. TT; Was that, was that earlier? PR: â€œThe Pride of Miss Jean Brody.â€ Well actual. . . no it wasnâ€™t, actually what happened, uh, I did the Miss Jean Brody, I competed in high school with that and uh, placed nationally with it and then I had done that for Miss West Virginia and won with that and then when you go to Miss America you have to do through this business of um, in the event you make the top ten and your on television there are all these rights and royalties or whatever they call it and uh, I have, they have to give you clearance, okay, and to make a long story short, I was unable to get clearance for this. Uh, I canâ€™t remember exactly the details, but uh, I ended up writing a dialog that I used and I donâ€™t even remember, but it had a lot of the same characterizations and that kind of thing. It was all, I was definitely thrilled when I won the talent, you know, because it was a real chore getting there. ST: I bet. TT: (Inaudible) Atlanta in â€™79 and who did you live with down there? PR: I lived with Dan and Claudia McCutcheon. TT: Okay. PR: Who had been friends from Parkersburg. TT: Did you guys move down there together? PR: Well, I went to Atlanta with Danâ€™s sister, Stephanie, who was my age. TT: Okay. PR: And we had been roommates in college for a year and we went down to visit her brother and sister-in-law . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .who had also gone to high school with us so we were all friend. And um, we went, I think initially for just a short visit and then came back a few weeks later to, and decided to move to Atlanta. Stephanie had gotten a job and, and I was still interviewing with advertising agencies. TT: You (inaudible) get a job with Hayes Computers you think? PR: No, I, that was much later. TT: Okay. PR: I had worked with McCann Erickson Advertising Agency. TT: Okay, so you worked as an advertiser to start with. PR: Right. TT: When you first moved to Atlanta you lived in an apartment building? PR: Um hum. TT: Same place that John lived, is that right? PR: Well we were, we were guests at Dan and Claudia. TT: Okay. PR: You know, kind of sleeping on the couch there. TT: Okay. PR: In a one bedroom apartment and John lived upstairs. TT: Okay. Where was this apartment at? Do you have any idea . . . PR: Where was it? TT; Yeah. Do you know the address or anything? PR: Uh huh. It was Post River Apartments on Talersbury road in Atlanta. TT: Okay. ST: Downtown Atlanta then? PR: No, this was north . . . TT: On the outskirts. PR: . . .Atlanta. Marietta. Uh huh. But we were only there for just about a month actually . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .staying with then. TT: All righty. Um, tell me about some of the TV shows you guys watch. You specifically. Uh, say in recent history, last, the last year. What kind of TV shows do you guys watch? PR: I donâ€™t watch TV much. TT: Okay. PR: You guys, who guys? TT: You, John, Burke. PR: Burke likes Discovery. TT: Okay. Discovery Channel? PR: He likes the Discovery Channel. TT: Okay. PR: And John likes the Weather Channel. TT: Okay. PR: Heâ€™s a pilot. TT: Is this a, is that because heâ€™s a pilot? PR: Yeah. And he watches that, whatever the, you know the thing that runs across the bottom with the stock market . . . TT: Um hum. PR: I donâ€™t know what that is. TT: Okay. Whatâ€™s the. . . PR: And he likes old movies. TT: Okay. Whatâ€™s the last book you read? PR: Last book I read? TT: Um hum. PR: I am reading right now um, â€œAt Home in Medfordâ€ by Jan Carran. TT: Okay. What other kind of books do like to read? PR: You know, I donâ€™t read a whole lot, because Iâ€™m usually so tired by the time I go to bed. TT: Okay. PR: Um, uh, Iâ€™m just drawing a blank. TT: Okay. Do you, do you get to the movies at all? Have you been out to see any shows at all? PR: Oh, I have . . . TT: I, I know itâ€™s difficult in the last couple of months. . . PR: Right. TT: . . .because of, of whatâ€™s (inaudible). PR: Right. TT: Letâ€™s say before December, what kind of movies have you and John gone out to see? PR: Well, actually we didnâ€™t go out to movies very much, because we had a home theatre . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .so we would usually weâ€™d see everything about a year after it came out. TT: Once it came out on video. PR: Yeah, but we, you know, the kids liked to watch movies up there . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .we watched â€œForrest Gumpâ€ and . . . TT: Do you and John watch movies at all up there? PR: Uh, yeah, but I usually fall asleep. He, he usually goes, gets the movies and there not my favorites and I usually fall asleep. TT: Okay. What kind of, what kind of movies did he, do you guys end up starting to watch. PR: Um, he likes Mel Brooks (water being poured drowns out Patsyâ€™s voice). He liked 1941. He loves animal House. I got him that for Christmas, and uh . . . TT: So the kind of comedy type movies. PR: Um hum. TT: Okay. Patsy, are there any concerns in the neighborhood up there or have there been any concerns in the neighborhood up there (sound of flipping pages drowns out Tomâ€™s voice.) . . .door to door salesman. Any of your neighbors talk about prowlers anything like that over the last six months? PR: Uh no. Not that I recall. I mean we did have door to door sales people occasionally. TT: Um hum. Magazine sales, the typical sales people come (inaudible) come through. PR: Yeah, sometimes children, you know, like a, um, black children. I mean, they donâ€™t look like theyâ€™re from my neighborhood or nothing, or look, you know like theyâ€™re from Denver and they have candy bars of (inaudible). . . TT: Typical kind of door to door sales. PR: Um hum and um, you know thatâ€™s the only thing I can recall. TT: Okay. How close are you to your neighbors? I know the Whites and Fernies, they live away, but to the immediate neighborhood, the street you live on. How close are you to the neighbors? PR: You mean close in distance or . . . TT: Not too much specifically, do you know your neighbors? PR: Do I know them very well. Well the Barnhills across the street . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .I know very well. TT: Okay. PR: Scott and Pricilla next door, I know fairly well. TT: They live to the south of you. PR: Well uh . . . TT: is that towards Baseline? PR: No the other way. TT: Okay. PR: Towards Cascade. PR: Right. TT: Alright. You and the neighbors on the block that you know or you talk to, socialize with at all? PR: Not really very much, well Mary and Pat Van live down two doors . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .on the corner of Cascade and 15th. . . TT: Same side of the street? PR: Uh huh. But we didnâ€™t, you know, I didnâ€™t see them very often, but just to wave and . . . TT: How often do you talk to the Barnhills or have you talked to the Barnhills in the past? PR: Uh, I kind of keep, you know their elderly . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .and I would kind of, you know every two or three days probably . . . TT: Kind of keep in touch with them: PR: Uh huh. They, they kept our dog a lot . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .when we went out of town or whatever. Joe was, last year about this time, around Easter time, he was quite ill with some respiratory stuff and I was taking groceries and dinners and . . . TT: Kind of taking care them. PR: Yeah. Kind of keeping my eye on him. TT: Okay. In talking to them had they noticed any weird people around the neighborhood, anything like that in the last six months? PR: No. TT: Anybody that shouldnâ€™t be? I know itâ€™s, Boulder is real transient, I understand that . . . PR: Um hum. TT: . . .but, um, have you guys ever talked about any problems in the neighborhood, um, car break ins, anything like that? PR: No, not that I can remem. . . (coughing) I think once the neighbors across the alley . . . TT: Um hum. PR: Uh, they drive a black SAAB and I think a year or more ago they had had a, they were parking on 14th Street and they had a car break in and uh, consequently they build a, I think they build a deck on their house so that they could pull in under, you know, behind their house. TT: So they could park in the back? PR: Right. TT: Do you need a glass of water? PR: (Clears throat) This is, this is just right. TT: (Inaudible) Okay. PR: So. TT: (Inaudible) And when we talk to you, everybody knows Patsy Ramsey pretty well, um, tell me about some of the enemies that you or your family might. Someone that we may need to look at. Can you think of any names that come up as far as people that donâ€™t like you. Donâ€™t like Patsy. Who donâ€™t like the family at all. PR: You know. If thatâ€™s the case, Iâ€™m not aware of it. TT: Okay. Nobodyâ€™s talked about the problems that theyâ€™ve had with you? PR: No. TT: Okay. You know Johnâ€™s been in, in the computer business for quite a few years. PR: Um hum. TT: Starting his own company, merging companies, stuff like that. PR: Um hum. TT: Up through the years, as the companies have merged together, any bad feelings between employees maybe getting squeezed out, um, anything like that that your aware of? PR: Not that Iâ€™m aware of. I think, when, when they merged uh, to the best of my knowledge, when they merged to form Access, all the three companies that were merging all played a role somehow, you know. TT: Um hum. No body (inaudible). PR: Nobody got squeezed out I donâ€™t think. TT: Demoted anything like that. Moved out of top management positions or shuffled around at all? PR: Not, not that Iâ€™m aware of no. TT: Okay. Any problems when Access moved into, into Boulder from Atlanta. People that didnâ€™t want to move to Boulder or anything like that that you are aware of? PR: Um, no. Hum um. TT: Okay. ST: Um, Pat, let me jump in with one quick one on Access, uh, um, I was charged with investigative a lot of the aspects of Access employees that had been dealt with, a lot of the VPs over there and so forth . . . PR: Um hum. ST: . . .um, I was made privy to some information that there may be some sort of either IPO offering or management buyout. Uh, was anybody going to get hurt by that over uh, in the Access Corporate office. Was that going to hurt anybody that would . . . PR: But, I donâ€™t know what IPO is? ST: And Initial Public Offering if they, if they took the company public, um. PR: You know, I, I really donâ€™t know anything about that. ST: Okay. Fair enough. PR: John didnâ€™t really discuss. . . ST: Okay. TT: Bus . . .business matters with you. PR: Not, no. Hum um. TT: Okay. Patsy, I need to go through a couple of things here. What medications are you on right now? Are you still on Paxel? PR: Iâ€™m on Paxel, um hum. TT: How often do you take that? PR: In the evenings (inaudible) once a day. TT: Just a bedtime? PR: Um hum. TT: And, whatâ€™s the dose on that? PR: 30 milligrams. TT: And, are you taking anything else right now? PR: I just started Monday taking something for this sinus infection. I know your going to ask me the name of it. TT: Is it an over the, Iâ€™ll start (inaudible). PR: No, itâ€™s a prescription. TT: Okay. PR: You take it once a day for five days. Dr. Beuf prescribed it. TT: Okay. And, are you taking anything else right now? PR: Um, no. TT: Any over the counter medication, vitamins . . . PR: Vitamins. Iâ€™m taking vitamin C. TT: Okay. PR: (Inaudible) vitamin C. TT: Just for that sinus infection? PR: Right. TT: Is that an ongoing type or just . . . PR: Well, I just. . . TT: (Inaudible) PR: I just, since Monday started taking a lot of it. TT: Okay. Okay. Um, any, any other uh, any other drugs, originally you were taking Paxel and what was the other drug you were taking? Lorzipan. PR: Ah yeah, right. TT: Are you still taking that at all? PR: Uh, occasionally. Kind of as, on an as needed basis. TT: When was the last time you took the Lorizpan? PR: Uh, I took one last night about 6:30. TT: Howâ€™s that, howâ€™s that one make you feel. I mean, out of the two do any of them effect you at all that you can notice? PR: I mean I donâ€™t really notice anything, but I, usually I take the Adavan if Iâ€™m, I start getting, evenings are difficult for me. TT: Um hum. PR: When I start getting tired and I feel the onset of this, not feeling real good. Last night I was pretty, I just been missing JonBenet a lot lately. TT: Okay. PR: And uh, you know, it, it seems to, to kind of quell that . . . TT: Takes the edge off a little bit. PR: Takes the edge off a little bit. TT: What kind of dose are you taking on the Adavan when you take it? PR: Uh, a half milligram. TT: Okay. Took it last night, how, about how many times a week are you taking that? Once, twice? PR: Well, probably a couple. TT: A couple of times a week is all? PR: Yeah. TT: Okay. The Adavan and the Paxel, um . . . PR: The Paxel is an anti-depressant. TT: Um hum. Either one of them, do you think either one of themâ€™s kind of, uh, changing your thought process or clouding your mind, memory, anything like that? PR: No. TT: Okay. Itâ€™s not, not effecting any judgment or anything like that? PR: No, huh uh. TT: Okay. Um, I all this, I know with the sinus infection your probably not even thinking about it, um, have you taken any alcohol? How much alcohol . . . PR: No. I donâ€™t drink alcohol. TT: Okay. Uh, do you drink alcohol at all? PR: No. Not since Iâ€™ve been on the Paxel at all. TT: Okay. When did you start the Paxel? PR: Uh, I donâ€™t know. February maybe. TT: Okay. Begâ€¦towards the beginning or the end of February? PR: I canâ€™t remember exactly. TT: Okay. And the Adavan, did you start that about the same time? PR: Simultaneously. TT: Okay. PR: Oneâ€™s kind of a, I think one, is the way she explained it to me, one kind of works, takes awhile to start taking effect and the Adavan is kind of an on the spot, doesnâ€™t last very long, but helps you. TT: Okay. Now is Dr. Beuf still prescribing all that? PR: No. Uh, Rebecca Barkhorn, thatâ€™s my doctor (inaudible) TT: Okay. Um, around between thanksgiving and Christmas I know you guys traveled back and for the Atlanta quite a bit to see your folks and stuff. Um, between Thanksgiving and Christmas time, before Christmas, did you guys make some trips back and forth to Atlanta? PR: We went to Atlanta, excuse me, at Thanksgiving. TT: Um hum. What about after Thanksgiving before Christmas, any other trips to go back and see your mom? PR: I, no, I donâ€™t think so. TT: Okay. PR Not that I can remember. TT: Um, Iâ€™m, going to talk about the medical stuff. I know you had cancer about three years ago? PR: It will be four years in July. TT: Okay. PR: I was diagnosed. TT: And you went out to Washington to take care of that. PR: Bethesda, Maryland. TT: Um hum. PR: (Inaudible) TT: Um, everythingâ€™s going okay with that? PR: Yes. TT: I know the stress . . . PR: Thank God. TT: I know the stress ca cause some problems with that. Are you doing okay with that so far? PR: Yeah, I just had a checkup. TT: Good. PR: Everything was great. TT: Good. Any other medical problems youâ€™ve had other than the uh, the cancer. PR: Um no. TT: Any other surgeries? Spend time in the hospital, other than . . . PR: At times (inaudible) when I was a child. TT: Okay. PR: Uh. I had a breast augmentation. TT: Okay. PR: You probably, did you know about that? TT: (Inaudible) PR: No the world will know. TT: No. And actually uh, (inaudible) stuff like that, that staying here . . . PR: Okay. TT: . . .inside. That doesnâ€™t get out. Um, when did you have that? PR: Oh, 1982 or 3 or something like that. TT: Okay, way back. PR: And then I had, when I was finishing my chemo and they were doing a chest x-ray and uh, suspected a rupture, so I had (paper rustling covers Patsyâ€™s voice) locally at the (inaudible) hospital I had my Poriocath taken out, which was where I took my chemo and he went in and checked and both breast, whatever those are . . . TT: Right. PR: . . .had ruptured . . . TT: Right. PR: . . .and so he repaired the . . . TT: Okay. Spend any other time in the hospital? PR: (Paper rustling. Patsyâ€™s response is inaudible.) TT: Patsy, kind of tell me about your, your normal, normal morning routines. You know, how do you get up in the morning? What time do you get up? Get up by alarm clock, the sun? Kind of walk me through what you do normally in the morning? PR: Now or . . . TT: Sure. Letâ€™s start now and then weâ€™re, weâ€™ll work back. (Inaudible) PR: Okay. Uh, now I get up usually a little before seven and uh, get Burke rallied and get him ready for school and get his breakfast and pack his backpack and make sure he has his homework done and tie his shoes and . . . TT: Get him going? PR: Get him out the door. TT: Okay. After Burke gets ready do you get up and shower out and get ready to go for the day? PR: Uh, sometimes. I mean, I donâ€™t have much that I go . . . TT: Okay. Donâ€™t have a set schedule. PR: . . .out to do lately, so . . . TT: Okay. PR: Sometimes go back to bed. Sometimes I get dressed. TT: Okay. Let, Letâ€™s hop way back before Christmas. Kind of walk me through a normal, normal morning for the family, for you guys. PR: Um, get up and usually I would get up uh, and get showered and get dressed. I didnâ€™t (paper rustling causes Patsyâ€™s voice to be inaudible) get dressed before I got the kids up, but um, get the kids up and, Burke usually, you know, dresses himself if I kind of lay his things out and that kind of stuff, but I would get JonBenet dressed and do her hair and all that and . . . TT: Get her ready for school. PR: Get her ready for school. Breakfast. TT: Okay. Did you have to use an alarm clock to get up or you . . . PR: No. TT: (Inaudible) hop out of bed . . . PR: Yeah, I usually just (paper rustling) get up. TT: Kind of hop out of bed in the morning person. Canâ€™t do it. PL: (Laughs) TT: Not a morning person. PR: If you get the kids off to school . . .(more paper rustling). TT: You know John uh, John had some problems, kind of was in the hospital (inaudible) when you were going through cancer (inaudible due to background noise) treatments. How did that turn out? PR: He had paracraditus. TT: Um hum. PR: (Inaudible) TT: Kind of an inflammation around the heart? PR: Right. And he had bee to Mexico and I will always believe he got something nasty in Mexico . . . TT: Um hum. PR: Um, but he, one evening he was grabbing his chest, you know, and I said whatâ€™s the matter and he said, oh I have this little chest pain and I said well it must just be indigestion they said that if your having a heart attack your arms hurt and he said well, my arms kind of hurt. TT: (Chuckle) PR: In the car. So we took off to the hospital. TT: Now was that here in Boulder or was that down in (inaudible). PR: That was Boulder. TT: That was in Boulder? Okay. How many days did he, did he spend overnight in the hospital. PR: Uh huh. Yeah. TT: Just one day in the hospital. PR: Um, (paper rustling causing Patsyâ€™s voice to be inaudible) one or two. TT: Nothing permanent though. PR: No. He took some kind of medication for it and that was (inaudible) . . . TT: Strong antibiotics and all that and . . . PR: Yeah. I canâ€™t remember what the name of it was. TT: Does John have any other major medical problems at all? PR: No. Well, he had uh, he goes to Mayo Clinic regularly and uh, this past fall he had some prostate tests. . . TT: Um hum. PR: Um, but those were all fine. TT: Okay. So heâ€™s in generally good health? PR: (Inaudible) TT: Okay. Other than the one or two days in the hospital um, for his paracaditis, any other stays in the hospital for John? PR: Um, I donâ€™t, not that I recall. TT: Okay. Kind of a, who handles the finances for the family, the checkbooks, pays the bills, that kind of stuff? PR: He does. TT: Okay. PR: Usually. TT: John takes care of all that kind of stuff? PR: Well, I have a checkbook that I write, you know, my kind of, the personal things, you know, like, whatever, housekeepers or household kind of stuff, you know, but, he usually does (inaudible). TT: And thatâ€™s, particularly what your talking about, thatâ€™s, those kind of personal . . . PR: You know like laundry . . . TT: . . .housekeeping stuff. PR: . . .and you know. TT: Is that the checkbook you wrote the check to Linda Hoffman out of? PR: Uh huh. TT: Okay. And thatâ€™s uh, she was going to borrow $2,000 is that right? PR: Right. TT: On uh, the, on Friday the 26th? Thatâ€™s when she was due back in the house. Christmas was Wednesday. PR: Right. Oh yeah, I think thatâ€™s right, yeah. TT: Okay. Do you remember if you ever wrote her a check for that $2,000, because I know she talked about it. PR: Right. I donâ€™t think I did, because I think, I was thinking about that as I walked down the stairs that morning, that I, oh, Iâ€™ve got to remember to leave that check. TT: Okay. PR: And then everything broke loose. TT: Okay. She never picked it up or anything. She never stopped by later and got the $2,000. PR: I donâ€™t (paper rustling causes Patsyâ€™s voice to be inaudible) left that day so I donâ€™t know what happened. TT: Okay. PR: I mean I didnâ€™t write the check, so. TT: Okay. PR: (Inaudible) ??: (Inaudible) on the break. TT: Um, tell me about Burkeâ€™s normal bedtime routine before Christmas. How does, how does he normally go to bed. PR: Oh, he, he um, usually does his homework and then puts his pajamas on and sometimes reluctantly and . . . TT: Um hum. PR: He loves to watch Discovery so he tries to, but heâ€™s suppose to be reading a half hour a night, so we would read to him a little bit or he would read to himself and so he was generally pretty good about going to bed. TT: Okay. PR: About 8:30 or so. TT: (Inaudible) About what time does he . . . PR: About 8:30, um hum. TT: Burke also has a TV in his room, right. PR: Well, the TV doesnâ€™t really work. He used it for videos. TT: Okay. He also, what kind of videos was he playing? PR: He loves anything that has to do with airplanes. He has, you know, these flight instruction tapes and . . . TT: Theyâ€™re flight, like flight simulator that flies . . . PR: No, mean like the real (inaudible) pilot tapes, you know, to learn how to fly. TT: Oh. PR: He like to watch those and. TT: Okay. So heâ€™s looking at doing that as a kind of a hobby or something? PR: Oh yeah. He loves airplanes, like John. TT: Patsy let me talk about some employees. And some of these you might not know. Um, maybe only John knows about them. I just kind of go with you some names and see if any of these ring a bell to you. Do you know Brian Perry at all? Does that name right a bell to you? PR: (Whispers) Brian Perry. Um, no. TT: Okay. What about a Reed Lindsley. Reed Lindsley. PR: Reed Lindsley? TT: Yeah. Does that name ring a bell to you at all? PR: No. TT: Okay. And actually something that I might ask for you, kind of at a later date, so that you donâ€™t have to sit down and do that today. You guys have had quite a few construction workers or painters and . . . PR: Yeah. TT: . . .obviously carpet layers in the house. PR: Right. TT: Um, since we were in there. Is it possible to get a list of. . . PR: Oh, since you were in there? TT: Right. Since we were in there. PR: Oh. TT: Um, is it possible to get a list of construction workers or construction companies, contractors, that sort of thing, um, if you can sit down maybe at a later time and, and put together a list for us. PR: Oh, you mean like that has done . . . TT: (Inaudible) house. PR: . . .things since you all took . . .I donâ€™t know whose been doing that. Do you know whose been doing that? I donâ€™t know who . . . TT: Okay. Um, what Iâ€™m looking for is, kind of think of who all has been in your house since then (inaudible). PR: Oh, okay. TT: (Inaudible) contractor type people. PR: Oh, I donâ€™t know, but we could probably get that. TT: Okay. That would be great. Um, do you know Ray Fitzgerald at all? Does that name ring a bell to you. PR: Ray Fitzgerald? No. TT: Okay. Um, you guys had a, a Foyer Group meeting back on the 13th. PR: Right. TT: You want kind of . . . PR: What is that? TT: What is the Foyer Group, yeah. PR: The Foyer, itâ€™s a Foyer dinner group from church . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .from St. Johns and um, they have small groups , kind of a dinner group assigned and you meet with that group throughout the year, usually like school year. TT: Um hum. PR: And you have dinner in each others home, but this particular, there are like dinner, individual dinner groups of maybe six to ten that meet in each others homes and then the entire Foyer Dinner Group which is made up several of these smaller groups. . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .had a Christmas party at our house, so the entire group was invited. TT: (Inaudible) the six to ten of that, six to ten couples or six to ten people? PR: People. TT: Okay. PR: (Inaudible) Might be couples and singles. TT: Right. So, about once very six months to ten months you rotate around to another house. Is that, to have dinner. Is that right? PR: Right. Well, I think they have, they meet monthly, you know, and like if weâ€™re all in a group weâ€™d go to your house one month and my house one month . . . TT: Right. PR: . . .or whatever. TT: Okay, and so about once a, once every five to six months you have a host of a group of a, a group six to ten people . . . PR: At your house, right, uh huh. TT: Okay. Now, is this just a dinner group, religious group . . . PR: Well, theyâ€™re, they all go to St. Johns so their, you know. . . TT: Itâ€™s not like you sit down and discuss the Bible while your eating dinner or anything like that. PR: No, itâ€™s more social. Yeah. TT: Itâ€™s all social. Okay. PR: Yeah, uh huh, yeah. TT: About how many people were over at the house on the 13th? PR: Oh, you know, 50 or 60 maybe. TT: Okay. Quite a few then? PR: Yeah. TT: How many total, do you have an idea about how many total Foyer Groups there are? Are there about 10 groups then? PR: Probably yeah. Well, no. I think there are more than that, but I think, you know, not everybody came. TT; Okay. PR: I know there are a couple of pages worth, I think. I donâ€™t, I donâ€™t remember ever having counted them exactly. TT: Do, do you have a list of the people that were over to the house on the 13th? PR: No, but Carolyn Blyley probably does. TT: Over at St. Johns? PR: Yeah, sheâ€™s, she put it together. She just called me and asked me if I would have it at our house and I think, you know, I wouldnâ€™t have to do anything just have my house . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .she know I decorate a lot for Christmas and all that. TT: So you were just kind of the host house. . . PR: Right. TT: . . .invite everybody. PR: Right. She sent the invitations and all that. TT: Okay. Steve. ST: No, go ahead. TT: Okay. Patsy, tell me, letâ€™s start with Burke. Um, tell me about some of the kids that he plays with. Tell me some of this playmates. PR: Um, well, he is among a group of seven boys in his class. TT: Okay. PR: Uh, he uh, Doug Stine, plays with Doug Stine and . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .Luke Fernie are buddies and Anthony Pechio, from his class. Those are, Luke Fernie does not, goes to Mesa, but . . . TT: Right. PR: . . .heâ€™s just a friend otherwise. TT: Okay. PR: Um, He played with the Colby boys which, who live behind us. . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .in the alley, played with them. TT: Okay. PR: Quite frequently. TT: So he had kind of two distinct groups, at school, social group and then the neighbor. . . PR: Neighborhood. TT: . . .social group? PR: Right. TT: Okay. Um, other than the two boys across the alley, I know from the neighborhood, thereâ€™s not a lot of little kids in there. PR: Right. TT: Um, any other kids that, that Burke would play with around the area? PR: Well, sometimes, uh, Scott and Pricillaâ€™s children from other marriages would be around. Weston, Wesson or Weston and uh, Reid is the little boy I think. TT: Okay. PR: And then on the other side of us is uh, Luke, whose older than Burke, but he always been around occasionally, you know. TT: Okay. PR: And thatâ€™s about all I think. TT: Okay. What about some of JonBenetâ€™s playmates? She had some in school? PR: School mostly, yeah. Well, pre-school, Quinn Hasley was one of her best little girlfriends. TT: Okay. PR: And uh, Daphne White. TT: Um hum. Did they all go to the same pre-school? PR: Yeah. TT: And thatâ€™s . . . PR: First Presbyterian. TT: Down of 15th and Canyon. PR: Right. TT: Is that right? PR: Um hum, um hum. TT: Okay. Okay. PR: And uh, then this year in Kindergarten she like little Annie Smart and uh, Megan Kostinick. She liked them. TT: Okay. Did these little girls ever come over to you, to your house to play? PR: Um hum. Um hum. TT: About how often would they come over? PR: Oh, about once very couple of weeks maybe or so. TT: Um, what about uh, Burkeâ€™s friends. How often did they come over to the house? PR: Well, the Colby boys, you know, since they were neighborhood kids, they seemed to come over more frequently, because they just, more accessible. TT: Um hum. PR: Um. TT: Theyâ€™re the ones right behind you in the alley? PR: Right. Oh, I donâ€™t know. A couple of times a week maybe or . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .something like that. TT: Okay. Patsy, we got a uh, got some information for a friend of yours down in Shreveport. You know anybody down in Shreveport, Louisiana? PR: I donâ€™t know anybody down in Shreveport. TT: The name, that come up at all you guys know of? PR: I think I heard something about it in the press or something, but I never have known anybody that I can remember in Shreveport. TT: Okay. Um . . . PR: Do you know the name? Do you guys have the name? TT: I, I donâ€™t have the name right off. I donâ€™t have that. PR: Maybe itâ€™s somebody I knew that moved to Shreveport and I didnâ€™t know that. TT: Right. PR: But I donâ€™t . . . TT: Donâ€™t know of anybody that, recent friends that would have moved down there. PR: No. TT: Okay. Some of this stuff, may not be able to help us a whole lot. Iâ€™m kind of going back to access Graphics a little bit. Um, I think I need to touch on it again, but I will. Any concerns that Johnâ€™s brought home from work about problems at Access (inaudible). Any employees other than the, weâ€™ve got a couple of employees that you guys were talking about. PR: Yeah. TT: And that Ellis has given us. PR: Yeah. Well, I uh, remember, I donâ€™t know the time frame exactly, but this fellow named Jeff Merrick . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .who was, has known John for several years, I guess from, I think they worked together at AT&T when John was out of college or something like that, but he came to work at Access and was subsequently asked to resign, I think. . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .and I remember John and my dad, you know, works there too, that they were both concerned that he was, you know making threats. . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .to Access and he didnâ€™t go quietly in other words. TT: Right. PR: Uh, and that was, you know . . . TT: Ellis gave us Jeff Merrick and Mike Glenn. PR: Mike Glenn, yeah. TT: Any other names that have come up that that you guys can think of? PR: Uh, you know, I mean, you just, I mean we have done nothing but try to rack our brains over this . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .since this happened and uh, you know, John, I, John would probably know better about anybody at the office or anything, but just, I remember Merrick and uh, oh Jim Morino, I think we, we kind of, John kind of had him maybe at the top of the list. Um, and this Mike Glenn. And all three, I believe released or if I remember right. TT: Okay. Now, mike and Jeff um, have they ever been to your home at all? PR: Yes. TT: Okay. When was the last time Mike was at your house? PR: Oh, jeez, I canâ€™t remember, you know, I, I mean theyâ€™d just been there. I know when we kind of first moved we were, it was when we, I remember we were remodeling the patio, so I donâ€™t know when that was. A few years ago. I mean, sort of after we had moved, first moved in we, it was Fourth of July and we went with Mary and Mike and their little girl to Chautauqua Park over the Fourth of July . . . TT: Um hum. PR: Thatâ€™s what I remembered and then they came down and had hamburgers and then we walked down to the stadium for the fireworks. TT: Um hum. PR: And he dropped by a couple of times and brought John, this is before I think he even worked at Access. TT: Okay. PR: He would bring, he was with the football program. He brought John Colorado sweater one time. TT: Okay. PR: You know, I, I canâ€™t, they havenâ€™t been there anytime recently. TT: Okay. Since Mike uh, left Access, ahs he been there at all? PR: Uh, not to my knowledge. TT: Okay. Um, sounds like heâ€™s kind of dropped in every once and awhile. He wasnâ€™t. . . PR: Yeah. TT: . . .wasnâ€™t a frequent visitor at all to the house. PR: Um, no. Hum um. TT: Okay. What about Jeff Merrick? How, how often did he come by the house? PR: Not very often. I remember he and his wife came by when I was under chemotherapy treatment and they uh, you know, we sat in the sun room and talked (inaudible). TT: Okay, um. . . PR: I mean they werenâ€™t um, you know, they, we didnâ€™t socialize with them or anything, you know. TT: Right. Do you know when the last time Jeff was in the house? Would it been kind of the same length as Mike, quite a while back? PR: It would be quite a while ago. TT: Okay. PR: As far as I can remember. TT: Okay. Do you know the name Greg Neff at all. Greg, Greg Neff. PR: No. TT: Or Neef? PR: Neef? No. Greg. . . TT: Does that name ring a bell at all to you? PR: No. TT: Any other, and I know you guys racked your brains, not including Access, not including neighbors, any other names that have come up. I know Ellis has given us some. PR: Well, I just, I mean, I, you know, poured out a list of everybody I could ever remember ever worked for us. TT: Um hum. PR: . . .or, um, you know, we just, if heâ€™s given you that list, I mean, we just . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .uh, you know, I mean, you just I canâ€™t imagine that we know anybody that would do such a thing as this, you know, but, but whoever did this is just, mean, evil person. TT: Okay. PR: You know. TT: Patsy, letâ€™s um, letâ€™s kind of go back to December 23rd. I know you had a party at your house, quite a few people at the house. PR: Um hum. TT: And I think I actually have a pretty good idea of who was all in the house . . . PR: Um hum. TT: . . .at that time, but kind of walk me through the party real briefly, um, you know a couple of people that were there. . . PR: Um hum. TT: . . .what kind of activities occurred, and who was in what parts of the house, that sort of thing if you would. PR: Um. The 23rd we had uh, the Whites over and she had a lot of family in so they were all guests. Fleet and Pricilla and their two children and uh, her sister, Allison, and her boyfriend, Allisonâ€™s boyfriend, and I canâ€™t remember his name, but. . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .uh, (inaudible) guy and uh, Allisonâ€™s daughter, uh and I canâ€™t, Heather, is her name. TT: Iâ€™m going to stop us for just a second if I can. Excuse me Patsy . . . PR: Okay. TT: . . .because we need just an infrequent interruption. JF: Are you gonna switch. . . TT: Change tapes. (End of Tape 1, Side A) (Begin Tape 1, Side B) PR: . . .and the Stines, Glen and Suisan Stine and their son, Doug . . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .and I think Susanâ€™s mother was there and Glenâ€™s mother . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .my father and letâ€™s see, who else? Um, the Fernies, (inaudible). TT: What did you guys do at the party? PR: Uh, Joe and Betty Barnhill were there too. TT: Okay. PR: Um, we had dinner and Santa Claus came, Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus came and we, always had a little poem kind of thing. Give everybody a little gift from Santa. TT: Um hum. PR: And the kids decorated gingerbread houses. TT: Okay. PR: The poem youâ€™re talking about is that what, I know, one of the pictures you have, uh, Santaâ€™s reading. . . PR: Right. A little . . . TT: . . .out of a black book. . . PR: Right. TT: . . .and thatâ€™s, who does the poem for that? PR: Me. TT: Okay. Thatâ€™s the poem in the black book? PR: Right. TT: Okay. About how long, what time did the party start that night? PR: Oh, I norm. . .uh, kind of early because I, if I remember I, Santa Claus had two engagements that night and so he came, I canâ€™t remember whether it was like 5:30 or 4:30 or somewhere in there. TT: So fairly early in the evening? PR: Fairly early yeah. TT: Okay. About what time did it break up? PR: Oh, probably, I donâ€™t know, nineish, 8:30 . . . TT: Okay. PR: Sometime like that. TT: All right. Um, and this is when they, they decorated the little gingerbread houses. . . PR: Right. TT: . . .and that kind of stuff. Okay. How do you, how do you decorate gingerbread hoses with that many little kids? PR: Well, I bought the gingerbread houses at Safeway. . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .all ready stuck together. TT: Okay. PR; Then I bought this huge big tub of frosting. . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .and Pricilla brought these frosting bags. . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .or something like you decorate a cake with and I bought just bunches of jelly beans and M&Ms and all the, gum drops, you know, and al that stuff and the kids just . . . TT: squirted it out and stuck . . . PR: . . .squirted it out and stuck it on, you know, it was all over the place. TT: I bet. PR: That was. . . TT: Quite the clean up job afterwards. PR: That was fun. TT: Okay. Did um, did Linda come, Linda Hoffman? PR: Yes. TT: Was she there also? PR: Yes, and her daughter. She had helped me all day getting ready for the party and she stayed through Santa Claus. TT: Okay. And did her husband show up that night? PR: Uh, not to my knowledge. TT: Um hum. PR: I think she had her car and . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .I think she drove home. TT: Okay. So she just stayed after, helping get stuff set up? PR: Well she, yeah, she, she came, if I remember right, she came a little late that day cause, so she could stay, you know. TT: Okay. PR: On through the late afternoon and evening getting ready for the party. TT: Okay. Um, did anybody else show up that night. White, Stines, Don Paugh and the Fernies, Barnhills, Mr. & Mrs. Claus, Linda and her daughter? PR: I . . . TT: Anybody else that you can remember that was over there that night? PR: Um, well, John told me that this man came to the door looking for the Barnhills . . . TT: Okay. PR: I donâ€™t remember seeing him, but John said he let him in. . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .and kind of showed him to the Barnhills. You know my dad said he remembers him, this man being there and I think my dad said he invited him to eat something and. . . TT: Okay. So did uh, Betty and Joe Barnhills know him? PR: Apparently, yes. TT: (Inaudible) Okay. Alright. How are you doing? Do you want to take a break? PR: Nope. TT: Go to the bathroom or anything? PR: No. TT: Get a drink of water. PR: No, Iâ€™ve got a little left, thank you. TT: Got a little of your tea left. Okay. Patsy, letâ€™s move over to the uh, to the 24th. I want you to start kind of, actually letâ€™s go more towards the afternoon of the 24th. That would be the 24th of Christmas Eve. The kids are all excited. Kind of run me through that in the same fashion. What did you guys do? PR: Well we um, uh went to church, the family church service which was at four or 4:30 . . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .something like that. And uh, after that we went to Pasta Jayâ€™s for dinner. . . TT: Um hum. PR: And then we drove around town looking at Christmas lights and we drove up to the star up on the mountain there and um, I remember JonBenet was miffed because we wouldnâ€™t let her get out and she wanted to walk up into the star . . . TT: Um hum. PR: And uh, she just had her little velvet Sunday school shoes on, you know, so she was, she said, â€˜Well, whatâ€™s the use coming up here if you canâ€™t even go up to the star.â€™ Um, so then we came down, down from the star and we wound around by the Whiteâ€™s house and uh, I think, and we went in there for a few minutes and uh, then we went home. TT: Okay. PR: And, you know, got everybody ready for bed. TT: Okay. About what time (inaudible). PR: Oh, gee, I donâ€™t know. TT: Okay. PR: I donâ€™t know exactly. TT: Okay. Um, go home, go to bed. PR: Early evening. TT: Okay. Early evening? PR: Um hum. TT: Go home, got ready for bed um, where did everybody sleep that night? PR: Well, JonBenet was in her bed in her room. . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .and Burke was in his bed and we slept in our room. TT: Okay. Do you have an idea if JonBenet moved over towards Burkeâ€™s room at all that night. Slept in his room? PR: Um, I canâ€™t remember, canâ€™t remember. TT: Okay. Is that something that she would normally do? PR: No. TT: Sleep in Burkeâ€™s room. I know everybodyâ€™s got, you got, they both have two beds in their rooms. PR: Yeah, right um, I donâ€™t think so. I just canâ€™t remember. TT: Okay. How about December 25th, Christmas day. How did that start out? Who got up first and that sort of thing? PR: Uh, well, the kids came up and woke us up and John went down, he went to get everything ready, you know, get the lights on, get the music on, you know. . . TT: Um hum. PR: . . .uh, I think he, he said he had, he brought he, Santa Claus Brought me a bicycle so he had to go get that under the tree. . . TT: Okay. PR: . . .and then we all went down and, into the living room. Thatâ€™s where we had the Christmas. TT: Okay. Big tree in the living room. Okay. Because I know thereâ€™s kind of trees all over. PR: Right. TT: What, what do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25th. PR: I the basement. I had them all in the basement. TT: Okay. Because there were some extra Christmas presents. Who were they for? Do you remember? PR: Well, I had, I had some uh, bagged up and kind of ready to go up to the lake.