The Huge (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear on JonBenet, Modeled By Six-Year-Old

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Jayelles, Aug 1, 2006.

  1. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    As promised, I purchased a packet of size 12/14 Bloomies from Bloomingdales in NY and here are some photos of them.

    The first is for KoldKase. I think it was you who once asked about the packet they came in and how it was sealed.

    This is the packet:-

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    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2012
  2. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    This is the seal. There is a little plastic "string" which goes through the loop at the end, the tags and the hole in the zipper. You need to break this to open it. In the photo, the seal is intact:-

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  3. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    And this is the size 12/14 and size 4/6 side by side. My daughter is almost exactly the same weight and height as Jonbenet was when she died (and she is almost exactly the same age too - 6 years and 6 months). I won't be getting her to model the larger knickers as I don't think it would be right to do so. The dimensions of the knickers are as follows:-

    Size 12/14 - measure 12 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband is 22 inches unstretched.

    Size 4/6 - measure 8.5 inches from waistband to crotch and waistband is just under 17 inches unstretched.

    The size 4/6 fit my daughter just now.

    My observation without her trying them on is that they would be very "gapey" at the crotch and would hang down at the crotch. The legs look very wide.

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  4. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Copied from WS:-

    Well I just did a little experiment. I offered the larger size knickers to my daughter and she exclaimed "Mummy! These are too big! More like YOUR size". So there is no way she would mistake them for her own. Then I got her to try them on and they are simply huge on her. They wouldn't fall down round her ankles necessarily - not past her hip bones anyway, but they would certainly slip down as far as her hipbones - at which point the crotch is level with her knees. They are also incredibly baggy. Every heard the expression "droopy drawers"? They bag out at the back and form a little tunnel from one side to the next.

    They would be extremely uncomfortable to wear and I quite frankly cannot imagine any child being happy to do so.

    Another poster mentioned the possibility of them being worn over pullups and they would certainly accomodate rather large pullups with PLENTY of room to spare.
  5. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    Try one more experiment. Have her put them on, and then put on a pair of pants over them. I will wager that they will come off entirely with the pants, and that you would have to extract them from inside the pants in order to put them back on.

    Edited to add: Now this was a useful thing to do. The picture of the size relationships alone is valuable grist for our discussion mill.
  6. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Let me get this clear:-

    Put the oversized knickers on first
    Put normal sized knickers on atop?
    Then try to remove the normal sized ones to see if the large ones come off inside?

    Or do you mean trousers? Remember pants = knickers to me and "panties" is a naughty word here so I struggle to use it in posts!
  7. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    Mea culpa. Yes, trousers, jeans, that sort of thing. Outerwear for the legs you would not mind having your child wear in cold weather. :)
  8. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    OK (she thinks this is hilarious).

    I tried it with both jeans and velour trousers. The knickers didn't come right off - but they ended up down below her bottom.

    I don't know what the result would be if she'd been wearing them for a while and they'd had time to "work down". I'll try that tomorrow because she's in bed now.

    When I got her to try them on before, it was on top of her own knickers. This time I got her to wear them against her skin and it was truly awful. The legs openings are so wide that she isn't "covered" at all (if you get my drift). Her sheuch (good Scottish word for that gneral area) is pretty much totally exposd at the slightest movement.

    I quite simply cannot believe that any child would be happy to wear these.

    I wish I could demonstrate how baggy they are on a life-size dummy. Even before I tried them on my daughter, I didn't think by looking at them that they would be quite as baggy as they are.

    ETA - it would be like having no knickers on at all and I would imagine the seam on the inside of the trousers would rub against her skin.

    I wonder if the velvet trousers she was wearing were tested to see if they'd been against her skin in that area or if there were signs of her being "half-commando"?
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    Fleet white taking JonBenét home

    All this talk reminds me of the time when Steve Thomas interviewed Nedra Paugh in Atlanta, and he brought up the subject of toilet training with Nedra. I'm wondering just how old JonBenét was when she was at the Whites with Daphne (?).

    I would never have sent a man home with his daughter's little playmate, and dirty underwear like that. Imagine the humiliation for JonBenét.

    Page 137 Steve Thomas Hardback (Thanks to Little)

  10. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Size didn't matter. The Wednesday tag is what mattered.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  11. YumYum012

    YumYum012 Member

    Let me see if I remember correctly. Patsy claimed that JonBenet was sound asleep after returning from the Whites and the Fernies and Stines and being transported up to her bed.

    Patsy claims that she removed JonBenet's black nelvet pants. Does she mention changing the panties, or adjusting them in any way? Any reference?

    Patsy then CLAIMS that she replaced JonBenet's black pants with long johns. Did Patsy mention why she put a BEDWETTER in LONG JOHNS ... in long johns instead of pullups (or nothing at all)?

    Why long johns? Have you ever tried to thread cooked, damp spaghetti pasta through a narrow straw? That's what it's like threading a sleeping child's legs into long johns. It's damn near IMPOSSIBLE!!! The child's limbs are TOTALLY limp. That NEVER HAPPENED!

    So WHY the COMPULSION to thread spaghetti through a straw? No central heating? Nope. No COMFORTER? Nopey, nope. So there is NO COMPELLING REASON for a mother to go through that ORDEAL with a sleeping, bedwetting child.

    Then why was JonBenet FOUND with long johns on?

    JohnBenet would ONLY have long johns on IF she was AWAKE at some point AFTER returning home from the Whites. The most likely scenario is that she was awake and wanted to play with Chrismas toys. She did NOT need the warmth for bed ... but for playing downstairs, or eating pineapple it makes perfect sense. Being awake also 'splains why her bladder was almost empty prior to the murder.

    Sooooo ... if JonBenet was wearing long johns, then Patsy HAD TO BE LYING!!!

    JonBenet would ONLY have needed long johns if she was awake and was trapsing around the house. NO PARENT is gonna go through the threading ordeal unnecessarily. Patsy LIED.

    ... and as others have pointed out ... size 12 panties would have come off with the black pants when pulled off a sleeping six year old. And ... NO PARENT is gonna put those panties back ON under those conditions.

    Patsy LIED! Why?

  12. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Gosh, I agree with you. What would you do with a SLEEPING child? You would remove any outer graments which would be restrictive in bed or which would cause the child to become to warm - and you would leave it at that.

    On Websleuths, there is a discussion about the Bloomies. One poster offered the suggestion that the Wednesday size 12/14 knickers were used as a substitute for her Wednesday 4/6 knickers. The poster hypothesised that perhaps the Wednesday knickers had been seen by others - perhaps at the White's party and this was why it was necessary for her to be wearing Wednesday Bloomies when her body was discovered. In that case - what happened to the smaller Wednesday Bloomies? Were they ever found?

    Could the longjohns have been put on simply to keep the larger Bloomies on or to cover up the fact that they would have looked so huge and ... unlikely?
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    "Panties" is a dirty word? How about "jockey shorts"? "Boxers"? My mother-in-law...who is what we call "old timey"...calls panties her "step-ins"...I love that.

    OK, I'll play catch up all day. But off the top of my head, Jayelles, I think you've just proven that there was something more going on with those size 12 panties than Patsy's numerous versions of the tale. JonBenet could NOT have gotten that package open without cutting the plastic string. How Patsy could have pulled off JonBenet's black velvet pants that night without pulling the panties off with them, since JonBenet WAS lying down, asleep, the Ramseys claim, is also a mystery. Why Patsy would put them BACK ON with the white long johns, instead of a proper, clean pair, is also a question I have, especially considering they were going to be traveling the next day. Add in that Patsy also claimed in 2000 that she didn't remember a thing about any of this size 12 "panty" stuff...and I think we have another Ramsey whopper, fashioned to cover up why JonBenet had those way too large panties on when found murdered and molested.

    I'm sure y'all have lots of ideas, so let me read the thread. I'm thinking it had to do with needing "Wednesday" on the panties. Maybe because JonBenet used the toilet at the Whites, probably with others around, maybe the kids, or an adult who might have seen them on her.

    You see, I STILL want to know if those Wednesday panties that FIT JonBenet were ever found by LE. I don't think we know the answer to that, do we?

    Could it have been they had blood in them? That might have been the trigger. Or it could have been she wet them. I doubt we'll ever know.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2012
  14. YumYum012

    YumYum012 Member

    The "Wednesday" panties may indeed be important. If the Ramseys were claiming that JonBenet wasn't awake after they got home, then it wouldn't 'do' to have her found in something other than the Wednesday panties ... IF there were witnesses to her Wednesday panties.

    The key is whether or not there WERE witnesses. Sure would be nice to talk to Fleet and Priscilla and their daughter about this. So, what possible circumstance would cause JonBenet's panties to be seen by others if she was wearing pants? Consider ... a six year old MIGHT proudly show her friends a new pair of panties with Wednesday printed on them. At six, that would be no big deal. Were the panties "new" ... like a Christmas gift? (I forget the Whites' daughter's name - Daphne? - and age) ... Would JonBenet show her the new panties she got for Christmas?

  15. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    As the mother of three daughters, I vividly remember carrying them to their beds from time to time after they had fallen asleep. Sometimes they were already dressed for bed and had just drifted off watching TV or something. Other times they fell asleep in the car, and we carried them in to bed.

    I can honestly say that in those instances when they were still dressed in their day clothes, unless their clothing was too restrictive (a frilly blouse, a dress), I wouldn't even bother undressing them. Usually they were dressed in comfortable, soft pants and shirts in the winter time, or shorts and light shirts in the summer. If their clothing was too restrictive for comfortable sleep, I'd remove it and let them sleep in their undershirts and panties. My kids were never bedwetters, so I didn't have to worry about that.

    I can also state emphatically that if I undressed one of my daughters at that age and found that she was wearing panties that didn't fit her, those panties would have come off, because there is no way she would have been comfortable with them twisting from hither to yon as she turned over in bed, if they even would stay on her. And, no daughter of mine would ever have tolerated wearing panties that didn't fit, even if they could have gotten away with it, which they wouldn't have, because I paid attention to what they wore.

    I would also never buy panties as a gift for anyone else's child, as Patsy claimed she did. I do not believe JB wanted those panties for herself, except possibly as a cover up for the pull ups.

    There's that phrase, again - cover up. Seems to fit a lot of things in this case.
  16. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    According to information in a couple of the books about this case, adults would often have to assist JB when she went to the bathroom. They could have seen her underwear, then.

    That's another thing I never quite understood. At six years old, my kids knew how to clean themselves after they went to the bathroom. They didn't need help from adults. Patsy seemed really negligent in her duties as a mother in teaching her kids the fundamentals of hygiene and the proper things to wear. Why would any parent let their little kids wear clothing that doesn't fit them properly? By her own admission, Patsy didn't know when her kids took showers/baths, didn't know what size underwear her daughter put on for a Xmas party, didn't know the last time JB's fingernails were cleaned. IOW, she admitted to being a dunce at best and a negligent mother at worst. It's like Patsy went around in a fog all the time when it came to her kids.
  17. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    Hmmm. Hmmm. You might have stumbled on the reason the grapefruit knife was supposedly found on a counter outside JonBenet's bedroom. Several scenarios present themselves. Since it was easy for JonBenet to reach the drawers that kitchen implements were stored in, she might have gone down to the kitchen, gotten the serrated knife out, popped up to her bedroom, got the underwear package, sawed the string apart, and as was her habit, then left the knife when she was done using it. Alternately, Patsy might have done the same thing, and may have had motive to distance herself from the knife's use as a way of planting suspicion that it was yet more proof of intruder presence. I know that, on many occasions, I have used the sawtooth edges of my keys to break a plastic string when scissors were not right at hand.
  18. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    My kids always called them "unders." I have no idea where that came from.
  19. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm trying an experiment with my scanner. Page 48 NE Police files. It may be too large (?). If so, I'll delete it. If these are too large Moab, please let me know.
    I tried to reduce to 25% Moab, and it still remained the same (?).

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  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    Page 49 NE Police Files

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