Was Patsy taking Klonopin?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Barbara, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Hm. Could be.

    I started thinking about any instances of forcible penetration of a young girl by a woman and the case of Sandra Cantu and Melissa Huckaby came to mind.

    Some of the documents in the case have been unsealed and what do you think Huckaby drugged Sandra Cantu with?


    Huckaby drugged other people with Xanax so I'm guessing she probably took it herself pretty regularly.

    Huckaby raped Sandra with a rolling pin.

    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  2. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Wow, good pick up, kk. This Sara seems to have her act together. I always suspicioned that, if there was chronic abuse, that JAR was the perp. I still strongly suspect this but Sara makes a case for John which would explain his willingness to go along with the whole thing.

    On the other hand, if it was JAR, and Patsy/John just began suspecting it, the same scenario might play out, no? JAR was John's son, he might go along to protect him. I wonder what kind of relationship JAR had with Patsy following JBR's death?
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Interesting. I know one thing. I have a sister who has really been messed up with Xanax.
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Learnin, I can only say that the Ramsey had no picture at all of JAR in their book, DOI. They had photos of all the other children, but not him.

    There was a strange news report from his college buddies after the murder, when JAR actually "went missing" for the beginning of the next semester after Christmas holidays. The friends were so concerned that they actually talked to the media about it. They said JAR had so loved JonBenet that he had talked about her and how much he loved her and how beautiful she was, ALL THE TIME.

    When the reporter who wrote the article called upon the Ramseys with these concerns and statements, one of Patsy's sisters was very short and abrupt, saying if they were really friends, they'd stay out of it, more or less. She said JAR was with the family.

    Now, I thought the statements of the male friends, all college age, were odd, considering that JonBenet was six and had been murdered. But who knows how accurate those statements were in such a stressful time, and through the news reporter's perception? Plus, who could blame a brother for mourning such a death privately?

    Still, with all the elements of this crime unexplained, no close relative of JonBenet's is ever going to be free of suspicion by the general public. I still have questions about the grandfather's strange Christmas Eve standby flight to Atlanta, as well as the fact that the Ramseys first stayed with a bachelor/business partner when they returned to Boulder, in an apt. Patsy described as sparsely furnished and uncomfortable, instead of staying with her own father in his apt. there. It might have been too small, who knows, but it is a question never answered as far as I know. Lots of those.

    I have read an autobiography written by a woman whose Southern family habits of heritage included her mother giving her enemas when she was a small child, while the relatives held her down and watched her writhe and scream. Her father also sexually abused her when her mother brought the new baby home and moved into the child's room to be near the baby, putting the older girl in bed with the father.

    The damage done to this woman's psyche was brutal and she spent her life dealing with the betrayal of that abuse by almost self-destructing in abuse she heaped on herself. I couldn't actually finish the book, it was so hard to take reading about this. It was called Fatal Flowers. As it was considered a "groundbreaking" book about women and sexual repression in its time, I think a lot of people missed the deep psychology revealed in her retelling of the abuse which so devastated her because she downplayed it herself. Having studied the subject as much as I have, I wonder if she ever became aware of how significant that abuse was in her terrible relationship and sexual choices as an adult.

    Of course, the textbook case of well documented child sexual abuse is Marilyn Van Derbur: Miss America By Day. She wrote her own autobiography, another book that will tear you up to read. The parallels between her life and Patsy's are astonishing in many ways, though no one has ever mentioned Patsy or her sisters being abused--except for Tom Haney.

    Knowing what the evidence is in the abuse and murder of JonBenet, I believe that there was a very sick pathology going on in the Ramsey family. Look at how destructive it was, how it all ended. If it has ended....

    Well, just some thoughts to ponder. You can find a chapter of Van Derbur's book, along with some info and videos, etc., here: http://www.missamericabyday.com/
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I think we all have friends or family who have fallen into the prescription medication hell peddled by doctors/pharmaceutical companies to the vulnerable.

    I think Patsy very well could have suffered with a prescription drug-induced pathology. This is why I can't dismiss Bother Moon's theory. Someone was all kinds of crazy that night, and Patsy is all over the crime scene and did write the note, I believe there's no doubt. She also lied to LE relentlessly and without remorse.
  6. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I remember seeing Melissa Huckaby in court on tv. I thought she was ashamed of what she had done. I was expecting to see a sociopath, but she didn't strike me like that. I didn't make any connection with Xanax at the time.

    It's interesting that Huckaby's crime has some of the same elements as Patsy's: penetration with an object, trauma, strangulation, a note, a suitcase and even a cord.
  7. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    This is pretty much hearsay, but ...

    My daughter was a senior at a Pennsylvania college in 1996/1997. She was dating a guy who attended the University of Colorado at Boulder, and she went to visit him there over her February break in 1997, just 2 months after JB's death. Of course, everyone was still talking about the murder of JB, and though my daughter's boyfriend didn't know JAR personally, he knew who he was and the consensus was that he had something to do with it. He was regarded as "weird" by many on campus, and when my daughter's boyfriend heard about the murder, the first though he had was that JAR had done it. Apparently, he used to talk about her in an almost obsessive and inappropriate way.
  8. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Very interesting, indeed. When you think about it, I mean JAR had a bedroom, I believe, adjacent to JBR's. More than likely, she crawled in there from time to time. And that blanket in the suitcase, it had his semen on it, no? And she was only a half sister.

    One of the things, during my first real read about this case, that grabbed me is when JAR stumbled out of an alley during the University Hill riots. When one of the police advised him to get away, he replied something to the effect: "Yea, I have enough trouble."

    I thought this might indicate some kind of involvement in JBR's death (and it still might be the case) but I wonder if the autopsy findings, of chronic vaginal injury, might have really confirmed a few things for John and JAR was grilled about it.

    One of the real aggravating things about this case is the mixed medical opinions about the chronic vaginal trauma. Many experts say it is indicative of ongoing abuse but someone always brings up some professional opinions which cast doubt upon this. It seems this should be something which is black and white to me or darned near black and white. I suspicion, for BPD at least, that it was black and white.

    If JBR was being abused, prior to her death, this most assuredly means that the abuse is connected to the death, no?
  9. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Well, if she was being abused, and I believe the autopsy findings point to that, JAR would surely be high on the list of suspects. He had easy access, she was only a half sister who, because of her pageant history, might have been somewhat forward especially if he was coaxing her by saying how pretty she was, etc. .. It might have been enough to push an alcohol-loosened teenager to cross certain boundaries.
  10. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I could be wrong, and I go back and forth with perps in this case, but I have always suspected a male Ramsey being behind this thing. Koldcase did a wonderful job delving into things involving the possibility of JAR being involved. Very interesting that others found him weird and obsessive involving JonBenet. IMO, both Ram parents covered this up for sure and Patsy wrote the note. Of these things, I am 100% convinced. I also believe the chronic sexual abuse was male related. Who the actual killer was, is still questionable. But I have ALWAYS felt it was a male.
  11. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Where might I read kk's discussion on JAR? Is it on a particular thread here?

    I've always thought the Burke scenario was the most likely but, because of the very real possibility of previous sexual abuse, I've kept JAR on the front burner since he had easy access; his semen was found on the blanket in the suitcase, etc.

    If he was the abuser, his perverted acts might have been coming to light and possibly hired a hit before his half sister could verify all the sordid details. It's not too unreasonable to think he might have befriended one of the weirdos hanging around Boulder who would have done such a thing for some dope money.

    Could be a reason why it was done on Christmas or the holidays; better to do it when he has an alibi. DOES ANYONE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT DAY JAR LEFT FOR ATLANTA?

    He could've given the hit man a very lengthy guided tour. He could've taken the pen and pad before hand to write the note. Would've known where to have the hit man place the note.

    I always wondered about JAR's statement to the police about his step mother being flashy and could have attracted the wrong element...he seemed to offer that it was someone with a connection to the family....did he set it up that way?
  12. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    KK (I think) has posted stuff here in the past. I remember a long time ago at Websleuths (Tricia's, not Jameson's) she posted a lot of great stuff that she sleuthed on JAR. It got my attention since I still believe a male Ram did this, or at least was for sure behind the sexual abuse. It was long and detailed, very interesting reading.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I'm sorry, I find any resistence to the facts found at autopsy of chronic sexual abuse simply willful denial.

    Of course the RST is going to deny the facts in evidence of prior sexual abuse every single time, because to accept this evidence is to narrow that suspect list to the reality that no "intruder" can ever be on it. What are they going to claim? The intruder was sneaking in repeatedly and JonBenet just never thought to mention it?

    It's a deal breaker for any intruder theory. So never expect anyone to acknowledge the profound implications of prior sexual abuse who refuses to follow the evidence because it ALWAYS leads to the inner circle of the Ramseys.

    And to argue that it was just a coincidence that someone shoved a paintbrush up JonBenet the night she was murdered; when she had a hymen that was torn and worn through abrasion which happened over time before that night coincidentally, in some "innocent" manner; with her long medical history of vaginitis, bed-wetting, and a weak pediatrician who never even considered she was being abused and would not risk professional self-destruction by admitting he might have missed that; and this all just happened coincidentally in the case of a child murder involving a fake ransom note in handwriting suspiciously matching to her mother's, in a matching linguistic style with inside information about the family; with overkill in the form of a head blow and strangulation with household items including part of a paintbrush from the home; with obvious staging of duct tape post mortem and wrist bindings that didn't bind; found wrapped in a blanket in the family's darkest, most isolated basement room with the door latched; having been redressed after the paintbrush was jammed up her, including in underwear too large and not hers; with the family evading LE, obstructing the investigation from the minute they left the house where their child was murdered and left lying on the floor; those who were in the home when she was murdered, who by their own admission had no alibi, lying to LE repeatedly in interviews over several years after stonewalling them for months and then years; immediately hiring powerful, influential, and separate defense attorneys for each person in the home that night; withholding evidence they admitted they knew was being sought (package of Bloomies) from LE and the investigation for 5 years; family phone records never subpoenaed to this day; and more; all with not one solid piece of evidence in 14 years that led to the identification of any stranger in the house that night, even in spite of a MILLION DOLLAR REWARD offer the first year: preposterous, ridiculous, absurd, and plainly irresponsible because the child sex abuser who did that could very well still be doing it to other little girls, for all we know.

    Until the truth is told about what was done to JonBenet and by whom, until someone steps forward and witnesses for her, for her suffering, for her abuse, for her betrayal at the hands of someone she loved and trusted, no one close to her will ever be free from the burden of carrying suspicion wherever they go. Their money may buy them some fair weather friends, some flash and influence to hide behind--but no one will ever look in their faces and not wonder.

    And that's the Ramsey curse laid on them by the person or persons who set upon a path of lies, deceit, and destruction to cover up the truth and deny JonBenet that much.
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Thor. It's been a long time since I spent about a year or more doing research on JAR and working that theory. Like all theories, it has variations.

    JAR has a seemingly solid alibi, but like everything in this case, there are elements which muddy even that: the neighbor first told LE he saw JAR walk across the Ramsey lawn that Christmas afternoon. But JAR also had his mother, sister, future brother-in-law, at least one neighbor, and a couple of friends who vouched that he was in Atlanta that day and spent the night at his mother's house with a friend, leaving with his sister the next morning early for the flight to Minnesota to meet up with the Ramseys' private plane, which of course never left Boulder.

    JAR was arrested for underage alcohol abuse in the fall before the murder, in Boulder, if memory serves. He ended up with community service or something, but the odd thing is that between that arrest and his sentence in the Spring of 1997, I think it was, he got arrested again for some alcohol-related offense in Boulder. That's what I remember, at any rate, and please correct me if I'm misremembering.

    Another story I heard straight from a tabloid reporter's mouth was that he had run into JAR in Chicago--I think that was it--in a restaurant a year or two later and that JAR was drunk and angry and actually scared the reporter. Of course, the tabloids were out of control, as they usually are, and even worse with this case, so who can't understand a young man getting upset? Still, JAR also was reported to have threatened reporters at the Denver Airport, as well, and we know John Ramsey almost clobbered a pseudo Boulder reporter who tried to take a photo of him and JAR leaving a restaurant there. Ramsey friend and business partner Jay Elowski chased some businessmen with a ball bat in Boulder, thinking they were reporters, too. Susan Stine practically mugged a reporter, stealing his wallet when he knocked on her door and she demanded identification, then slammed the door and kept it, using the info in it later to harass the man and his wife--and yeah, that was theft and malicious slander, out and out, but Patsy thought it was so funny she wrote about it in her book. In spite of all that "we're gentle people who never yell" BS Patsy tried to sell, obviously Team Ramsey had no problem exhibiting aggressive, harmful behavior towards people who irritated them.

    So the issue of alcohol and aggression and JAR caught my attention in the Chicago story. Remember that John Douglas wrote up a much-touted "criminal profile" of the killer, though it was minimized by Douglas himself as he never saw the case files, just what the Ramsey attorneys gave him within weeks of the murder, early in the investigation. Douglas pretty much named JAR's age-group, type, motives, etc., even giving a watered-down theory that it might be a college-aged friend jealous of the Ramseys or some such, etc.

    I have no idea what is the truth or what is fiction or just perception with regard to JAR's relationship with JB, but I found the article about JAR "missing" very odd at the time. JAR's male, college age friends' stories about JAR's close relationship with JB and how he talked about her all the time gave me pause: if true, I have never known a college-aged male to speak of a sister of any age that way to other males his age, especially. But with JB being six, it just gave me the creeps.

    So your story is interesting corroboration, DeeDee, and thanks for sharing.

    Marilyn Van Derbur wrote in her book that older brothers are by far the highest percentage of sexual abusers of siblings. Since she's long been a trailblazer and an established researcher on the topic, she isn't making her statistics up. She opened one of the first clinics in this country for sexual abuse survivors--in Denver, Colorado, btw.

    But of course, statistics are not facts of evidence, and certainly not in this case. All I know, in my opinion, is that someone was sexually abusing JonBenet before that night, and that rules out an intruder, or at the very least, a stranger/intruder. I have a short list, and JonBenet knew them all and trusted them all. That person had access to her, so closely that she could be abused repeatedly, so there was also family trust in this person and for periods of time that would not go unnoticed except with the closest members of that inner circle.

    As to when JAR actually left Boulder and got to Atlanta, another set of facts that Team Ramsey has lit a smokescreen in front of: once upon a time, jameson wrote on her infamous "timeline" that JAR left Boulder on Jan. 19 for the Christmas holidays. But I've also seen reports that he arrived in Atlanta on Christmas Eve, the same date that Grandpa Paugh got there from his stand-by flight from Boulder. I have even read that on jams' forum, as well.

    She refused to clarify, and so has anyone else who should know and be able to answer that easily, if there is nothing to hide. Yet another important Ramsey detail remains obscured. As usual. What is the reason no one will explain where JAR was between Dec. 19 and Dec. 24? Maybe they like the idea that they're misleading us. NO, I'm sure they like that idea. Because it could be just another red herring, with JAR more than willing to obfuscate the facts for the public, believing we have no right to know. And maybe we don't.

    But a child was murdered, and the Ramseys made themselves public figures and have never quit telling us it was someone still among us, the general public. This they have done for 14 years, repeatedly appearing on TV and in the media, even writing a book pointing fingers at specific suspects who can't all have done it. Still no intruder has been found. So yeah, I think we, the public with that killer still walking among our children, do deserve answers. All of them.

    And anyone who actually wants the child abusing murderer found would feel the same way. ESPECIALLY the victim's family.

    But if there's one thing about this case I'd bet the farm on, it's that the Ramseys do not want that; more than anything in their lives, with every thought in their minds, that is the thing they MOST do not want--the molester and killer identified.

    So for 14 years, we've seen the Ramseys spend a fortune on making sure we--and LE--get plenty of disinformation, skewed half-truths, a never-ending supply of red herrings, and as little of the real facts of evidence as possible. That's why we don't know simple answers to simple questions like where was JAR between Dec. 19th and Dec. 24th.
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Let me add that during a discussion about the upcoming 5000 day mark in the timeline of this murder not being solved, I got to thinking about another theory that makes a lot of sense.

    I was pondering that The People's Republic of Boulder isn't all that interested in solving this case, now or ever, as Alex Hunter proved when he helped obstruct the investigation by the BPD, refusing to subpoena the Ramsey phone records, among other critical roadblocks he set up. Mary Keenan-Lacy carried that legacy even further in her incompetent and/or corrupt handling of the investigation and lack of prosecution. And Boulder citizens voted her into a second term, and probably would have given her many more if not for the new term limits.

    I've never understood this and never will. It's almost a silent acquiescence to injustice, a conspiracy in which many people have participated by simply closing their eyes and turning away, IMO. I'll believe to my dying day that there are people in Boulder who knew the Ramseys and have personal knowledge of elements of the evidence they can link to the Ramseys: like the strange construction of the garrote found on the neck, the cord, knots, duct tape, Bloomies, things about the ransom note they recognize, etc. I even believe there are people who know about the ongoing sexual abuse but won't ever expose themselves to the media firestorm and law suits that would follow if they ever spoke out and told the truth.

    The only hope for the truth to come out now is after John Ramsey dies, if someone really needs money and has some evidence to prove what they say: A photograph, more than one witness, something like that.

    I think Judith Phillips' daughter was trying to tell her personal experience with Burke going off on her and JonBenet and chasing them into a bathroom and banging on the door they locked because they teased him by turning his videogame off, losing his game progress. Anyone who ever played videogames knows how frustrating they can be, especially for younger children, and how even the mildest can turn into a ranting, tantrum-thrower out of that frustration.

    I have to say that I've often thought that Burke would certainly have sneaked out of bed and played his new Ninetindo games that night. That system was a breakthrough in videogaming and very hard to come by that Christmas season. I've often wondered if this was an element in the explosion that happened that night which resulted in JonBenet's death.

    Then the ongoing sexual abuse, whoever the perp was, could have played heavily into the decision to stage a kidnapping/intruder, because an accident between minors is one thing, but sexual abuse is a profound taboo in our society and is a lifelong stigma that few willingly bear. If the perp were an adult, there's also an arrest, legal issues, possible incarceration, and the permanent label of sex offender.

    So I think that there are still many possibilities as to who did what, and when. I've often wondered if the success in the cover-up really came from so many being involved in the various elements of the abuse and murder: prior sexual abuse; a fatal head injury--deliberate blow or accidental; strangulation and staging; ransom note.

    Well, just some more thoughts and theories....
  16. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Is this evidence against John Andrew of better quality than the evidence against Fleet White as a pedophile? Or against Santa Bill?

    Somebody told somebody who told somebody? We all know what happens when you play Telephone.

    At least White's accuser had a name so that the truth of her accusations could be evaluated.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  17. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I believe the case against JAR does have more weight than the case against FW or Santa Bill. For one thing, JAR had the access to JB that FW didn't. I can also envision JB being more likely to submit to JAR. The semen-stained blanket with the child's book is suspicious as well- there is simply NO innocent reason for that book to be in there. With Santa Bill, particularly, I cannot imagine he'd have that kind of regular, private access to her. One-time abuse the night of the murder is one thing, but the chronic abuse noted by the coroner means someone was ABLE to do it. To be able to do it, they had to be physically with JB on repeated occasions, alone.
    It is highly suspicious that JR hired an attorney for his ex-wife as soon as he hired his own. I see NO reason to do that unless it was imperative that she be shielded from having to provide proof (like a photo or video) that JAR was actually with her that night.
    While there is a video allegedly showing JAR at an ATM machine in Atlanta, the person in the video wears a baseball cap and his face cannot be seen.
    R phone records would possibly have shown a late-night call to JAR's mother as well.
  18. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Your points are well taken and this is why it is so da_ _ ed aggravating that "experts" are brought forth who dispute the obvious abuse. If we substituted janitor John Doe with John Ramsey, I'm willing to bet there wouldn't be one "expert" step forth to dispute the evidence of chronic vaginal penetration. Janitor John and his wife would have been grilled real good as soon as that autopsy finding was reported. If janitor John was not the abuser, you can bet your life janitor John would have been knocking some heads together instead of hiring everyone an attorney. Can you imagine? Your daughter's dead, there's ample evidence she was molested, you know you didn't do it, so, why aren't you in the face of all the individuals who had access?

    Hey, something just occurred to me. In one of the interviews, didn't Haney, or someone, inform Patsy that her daughter had been sexually molested? Why didn't she run out of that place, when the interview was finished, and get into some peoples faces? Did someone assure her that it was not abuse or did she already know what was going on?
  19. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Thanks so much for giving this "johnny come lately" a sypnosis on JAR, kk.

    1. I always found it strange that JAR and sister flew to Minnesota for a rendezvous with daddy. Why not just fly in to Denver and rendezvous? Or why not just fly down to Atlanta, pick them up, and then fly to Michigan? I know they could get a flight to Denver because they, obviously, flew in immediately when they found out JBR had been kidnapped. Was the kidnapping scenario a ploy to buy some time for someone who was involved? What time did Grandpa Paugh fly out of Boulder and arrive in Atlanta? Several IDI have suggested the ransom note was written to give the perp time to make a get away. I don't believe any stranger, intruder would have to worry about an escape but, what about a family member?

    2. I think there is some validity to Douglas' assumption that it could have been a college aged kid with the multiple movie references in the RN, etc. Not saying it is but food for thought.

    3. It's not surprising, at all, that Van Derbur wrote older brothers are, most often, the perps in sibling abuse. The sexual urge, for most adolescent males, is so powerful, so overwhelming, that release must occur often. Alcohol, as we all know, eases ones inhibitions. How many evenings did JAR come home under the influence of alcohol and have a half-sister sleeping close by, one that mommy had often dolled and dressed up and taught to flaunt it? Then one considers JAR's semen on the blanket and it gets more interesting. With all the talk, in that family, about the size of kids penises and the little sexual comedies played out at Patsy's birthday party, one wonders if JAR might not even had feelings toward his step mom which could have played out with her daughter. I remember JAR's comments about his step mom being flashy and might have attracted the wrong type..... This is simply conjecture....

    4. It is frustrating that JAR's whereabouts, and when he left for Atlanta, is so confusing. But surely LE has to have pinned down his whereabouts on those days leading up to the 26th, no? Sure would like to have access to all those files.

    p.s. And, yes, kk, if there is one thing I'm sure about, I'm sure that JR could care less whether the perp is found.
  20. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Maybe Patsy threw the book into the suitcase with the blanket. Nobody here knows when or under what conditions that occurred.

    You know, when I found out that someone on topix repeatedly called fr brown a pedophile (on the hilarious basis that I was a priest), my first thought was that if my real name had been used, I would be suing for defamation.

    John Andrew isn't a public figure. He hasn't tried to implicate the maid or family friends. The evidence against him as either a pedophile or a murderer is virtually non-existent. Shouldn't we be a little careful with his reputation?
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
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