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  1. #109
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    Staring from square one;

    Patsy saw JonBenet as an object.

    Patsy used the object to participate in a fantasy.

    Objects in the real world don't fair well when used in a fantasy.

    If they are living objects, they usually end up dead.

    Patsy's goal was NOT TO KILL JonBenet.

    The goal was to use the object and complete the fantasy.

    The object did have to die though.

    To accomplish this Patsy enlisted Sandy Stranger and played out a story line using the object.

    Patsy then continued to use the object as part of a kidnapping for ransom gone bad.

    In Patsy's dissociative mind, she had nothing to do with any of it.

    We are all pagans, like it or not.

    Devotion does not gaurantee salvation.

  2. #110
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    Most people believe that we have a soul that belongs to the non-temporal realm of the Gods and spirit. And the body inhabits the temporal realm of space, time and matter. When an animal or person is killed in ritual, the belief is the soul is separted from the body and goes off to the spirit realm as a messenger to beseech the intervention of the Gods. Same thing with an inanimate object sacrifice; the smoke rises and disappears. What was once matter becomes spirit and goes off the the Gods as a message.

    In this sense, what Patsy did to JonBenet was a sacrifice. It was a self serving fantasy carried out in the infantile retentive dissociative mind of Patsy Ramsey where subjectivity ruled. No outside higher authority was considered or consulted. One does not have to fear judgement when one is playing God.

  3. #111
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    Arriving late from a party, with packing to do for next day's early morning flight, she had to squeeze in 'sacrificing' JB into her crammed schedule. Yeah, right.

    There were two schedules going on. One derailed the other.

  4. #112
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    For example, you claim that the Sandy Stranger side of Patsy wanted to kill the Miss Brodie side in Patsy by killing JonBenet.

    I'm guessing you think think I am saying that Sandy killing Brodie involved the death of Patsy in some way. It didn't.

  5. #113
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    "The Prime of Miss Jane Brodie" is a fascinating book, but to infer that just because Patsy could relate to the book, decades later her psyche used it as some kind of 'instruction manual' in the killing of JonBenet is stretching it beyond all probability.

    That is not what I am saying at all.

    The book was misused as a justification.

    Same thing goes for The Psalms.

  6. #114
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    Not disturbing the flow of this discussion between rashomon and Paradox, I have once again enjoyed reading the posts. I have mentioned before that I saw the movie with Maggie Smith playing Jean Brodie. and reading over your posts on the characters in the book, rashomon, brought the movie very much to mind.

    rashomon:Sandy was of the opinion that Miss Brodie was a unconscious lesbian. She also thought Miss Brodie's sexual feelings were 'satisfied by proxy', in that she arranged for Rose to become Teddy Lloyd's lover. The supreme irony is that instead of Rose, it was Sandy who ended up sleeping with Teddy Lloyd, although he thought she was ugly, and even cruelly told her so.
    I remember Sandy sleeping with the art teacher, Teddy Lloyd, but don't remember Lloyd telling her she was ugly. The actress who played Sandy Stranger was actually a very pretty girl, so this doesn't seem to fit Lloyd's reaction in the book. You can see her here: http://www.pxdrive.com/picture/44501.html

    Anyone else remember Teddy Lloyd in this scene The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (1969).

    Although I have enjoyed the discussions, Paradox, I personally cannot get into this theory, but I am still very interested in what you have to say. I have an open mind.

    I would say rashomon is doing a good job of keeping you busy.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1
    Not disturbing the flow of this discussion between rashomon and Paradox, I have once again enjoyed reading the posts. I have mentioned before that I saw the movie with Maggie Smith playing Jean Brodie. and reading over your posts on the characters in the book, rashomon, brought the movie very much to mind.

    I remember Sandy sleeping with the art teacher, Teddy Lloyd, but don't remember Lloyd telling her she was ugly. The actress who played Sandy Stranger was actually a very pretty girl, so this doesn't seem to fit Lloyd's reaction in the book. You can see her here: http://www.pxdrive.com/picture/44501.html

    Anyone else remember Teddy Lloyd in this scene The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (1969).
    Elle, you're not disturbing the flow of the discussion at all - I'm glad you have joined in!
    This actress (Pamela Franklin) is a very pretty girl indeed. Very different from the Sandy in the book, to whom Teddy Lloyd said that she was the ugliest thing he had ever seen. This was when Sandy was fifteen, a good time before she became his lover. This was incredibly cruel of Teddy to tell her that:
    p. 102 (Penguin book paperback):

    "One day", said Teddy Lloyd as he stacked up his sketches before taking Sandy down to tea, "I would like to do all you Brodie girls, one by by one and then all together. He tossed his head to move back the golden lock of his hair from his eye. "it would be nice to do you all together", he said", and see what sort of a group portrait I could make of you."
    Sandy thought this might be an attempt to keep the Brodie set together at the expense of the newly glimpsed individuality of its members. She turned on him in her new manner of sudden irritability and said, "We'd look like one big Miss Brodie, I suppose."
    He laughed in a delighted way and looked at her more closely, as if for the first time. She looked back just just as closely through her little eyes, with the near-blackmailing insolence of her knowledge. Whereupon he kissed her long and wetly. He said in his hoarse voice, "That'll teach you to look at an artist like that."
    She started to run to the door, wiping her mouth dry with the back of her hand, but he caught her with his one arm and said: "There's no need to run away. You're just the ugliest thing I've ever seen in my life." He walked out and left her standing in the studio, and there was nothing to do for her but to follow him downstairs."


    I have only read the book, but the film obviously portrayed Sandy as a far prettier girl. In the book, it is also often mentioned how small Sandy's eyes were, and Pamela Franklin actually has big and very beautiful eyes.

    Sandy's astuteness again hit it dead center when pointing out to Lloyd the real reason why he wanted to paint the Brodie set. He doesn't even protest but laughs - he knows she is right.

    TPOMJB is also a book about awakening sexuality, about the initiation of adolescent girls into the world of sexuality. But the adults in the girls' surroundings behave irresponsibly. An exhibitionist shocks them, the teacher the girls have crush on (Teddy Lloyd) is cheating on his wife with Miss Brodie, - although they only kiss, but that's cheating too -, and Miss Brodie more or less tries to pimp Rose to Teddy Lloyd to act as a proxy for her and also to test her power over Lloyd. Miss Brodie is always very satisfied to hear how much Teddy Lloyd's portraits of Rose resemble her.
    Her continually telling the girls about 'dedicating her prime' to them by giving up her own sexuality for their benefit is a bold-faced lie imo. I think her true motive was "I don't need to sleep with Teddy Lloyd myself to have power over him. Even when Rose, the sexually most attractive girl of my set, seduces him, still all he will see in Rose is ME."

    I reacted on a very emotional level to the book, the reason being that I'm a teacher myself. Although Miss Brodie is 'only' a fictional character, I vacillated between anger and contempt for her. For her manipulative behavior was just so irresponsible. It was abuse.
    Last edited by rashomon; March 18, 2007, 6:15 am at Sun Mar 18 6:15:07 UTC 2007.

  8. #116

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    [Quotes from Paradox in italics]

    Staring from square one;

    Patsy saw JonBenet as an object.


    Agreed.

    Patsy used the object to participate in a fantasy.

    Agreed.

    Objects in the real world don't fair well when used in a fantasy.

    Agreed.

    If they are living objects, they usually end up dead.

    Leaving aside ancient sacrifice rituals, I would disagree on that. In case you speak of human beings, they mostly stay alive. For example, the fewest girls pushed into pageants because their mother wants to act out a fantasy end up dead. I know that this is not what you mean by 'fantasy' in that case, but your word 'fantasy' here is open to interpretation from the point of logic.

    Patsy's goal was NOT TO KILL JonBenet.

    Agreed. But I think Patsy had no goal at all on that night, since nothing which happened was planned.


    The goal was to use the object and complete the fantasy.

    Only in Patsy's real-life existence. Imo she used JB as an extension of herself to complete her own fantasy of being forever young and sexually attractive. Both mother and daughter coming dressed-up as Marilyn Monroe in a pageant speaks volumes in that respect.

    To accomplish this Patsy enlisted Sandy Stranger and played out a story line using the object.

    If only Patsy had had a shred of Sandy Stanger in her psyche, this tragedy would not have occurred. For the Sandy Stranger side in her would have led her to look at all that superficial pageant stuff with a very critical eye. [

    Patsy then continued to use the object as part of a kidnapping for ransom gone bad.

    She used the object she had tragically killed in a rage attack for that.

    In Patsy's dissociative mind, she had nothing to do with any of it.

    In a way, yes, for she did try to dissociate herself from the crime. But I believe it never went as far as her having blocked out that it was she who killed JB.

    We are all pagans, like it or not.

    I'd like to start with basics before going into that. First of all, biologically speaking, we are merely mammals who, in the course of Evolution, have acquired a very highly developed brain. Therefore we are the only animals who can reflect about our existence.

    Devotion does not gaurantee salvation.

    Nothing is even guaranteed in so-called 'real' life. For example, whatever precautions we may take, nothing can guarantee us that we will wake up alive in our bed the next morning.
    How can we hope that devotion can 'guarantee' salvation when we don't even know whether a transcendent power exists?
    And what exactly is 'salvation'? Does there exist a common denominator in the different religions as to what exactly 'salvation' means? The gamut ranges from 'Nirvana' to 'eternal life'. I don't want to start a philosophical and religious discussion here, but merely point out to consider the complexity of global terms like 'salvation' before using it in a discussiom. Therefore how can we know what 'salvation' meant for Patsy?
    Last edited by rashomon; November 25, 2007, 4:55 pm at Sun Nov 25 16:55:44 UTC 2007.

  9. #117
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    And what exactly is 'salvation'?

    Ego development; to the point that one can mediate the instincts and impulses by mastering the sensation and intuition (irrational) functions and make decisions by mastering the thinking and feeling (rational) functions, establish and maintain a personality and an identity that can participate with inflation and deflation constructively without being swept away by them. Also, living by self knowledge and shadow acceptance rather than unconscious projection. And relating consciously to the unconscious.

  10. #118
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    To accomplish this Patsy enlisted Sandy Stranger and played out a story line using the object.

    To accomplish this Patsy enlisted Brodie's determination of Sandy Stranger and played out a story line using the object.

    There, that's better.

  11. #119
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    Objects in the real world don't fair well when used in a fantasy.

    Objects in the real world don't fair well when used in a psychotic fantasy.

    There, that's better.

  12. #120
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    Therefore how can we know what 'salvation' meant for Patsy?

    Maintaining the infantile illusion of superiority.



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